List of Federation Members

[Christopher]

LightningStorm wrote:

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Maybe it's the first one closest to Alpha Centauri as opposed to the first one closest to Sol?

Uhh, then it would be Sol. It's not only the closest star to us, we're the closest star to it.

[LightningStorm]

I'm not heavy enough into astronomy to really talk about it. But I was just thinking that perhaps it was a situation where AC might be closest to Sol AP could be closer to AC than Sol was in the opposite direction.

For lack of visuals I'll use numbers take: 1, 7, 10, and 15. 1 is Sol, 7 is AC, and 10 is AP. 10 is closer to 7 than 1 is but 7 is still the closest to 1.

But that's neither here nor there if that isn't at all the case. Which it sounds like that is what you are saying.

[Christopher]

^^Yep, that's what I'm saying. List of the nearest stars to Alpha Centauri:

http://www.stellar-database.com/Scri...e?ID=200&ly=15

[Timo]

In terms of clear-cut mistakes, Klaestron shouldn't be a UFP member. They were overtly hostile in "Dax" and made it clear that the UFP should keep out of their business.

I can't fathom how the idea first surfaced that these guys could be members - but it persists in so many books now that it may have to be rationalized somehow, such as with them all joining immediately after the events of "Dax" due to a revolution or something.

Also, you probably know my stance on Trill membership...

Yeah, it is kinda silly. Unfortunately, TOS did this a fair bit: Beta III, Omega IV, Omicron IV. And TMP gave us Delta IV. So, the original episode writer did probably intend for it to be a planet whose full name is Alpha III.

We could always argue that our heroes drop parts of star names when they are clear from the context. Either the place is so famous that nobody bothers to give the full name anyway, or our heroes are having their adventures that week within a specific constellation (a tight asterism) and thus drop the constellation name.

Alternately, we could argue that we are mistyping these names. It's not Delta IV, it's Daltay IV; it's not Alpha III, it's Alstha III; it's not Omega IV, it's Omygu IV. Odds are that most words in a foreign language will always resemble differently spelled words of different meaning in other languages - especially in the case of proper names.

Timo Saloniemi

[Therin of Andor]

Timo wrote:

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In terms of clear-cut mistakes, Klaestron shouldn't be a UFP member. They were overtly hostile in "Dax" and made it clear that the UFP should keep out of their business.

Doesn't Earth's United Nations have some overtly hostile members at times, who make it clear that the UN should keep out of their business?

[GodThingFormerly]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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When I chatted to TOS/TMP makeup man Fred Phillips in 1983, he mentioned that the expensive alien ambassadorial costumes were ordered up because there was a plan to have Nogura addressing a "Journey to Babel"-type banquet in which they are told of the gigantic cloud heading for Earth. That idea didn't progress because Robert Wise found most of the masks wanting, and relegated most to background scenes, where little detail would be evident.

That scene isn't mentioned in any In Thy Image/The Motion Picture treatment or script of which I am aware.

TGT

[Therin of Andor]

The God Thing wrote:

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That scene isn't mentioned in any In Thy Image/The Motion Picture treatment or script of which I am aware.

I know, but it was the brief given to Fred when he started sculpting masks. He was disappointed the "big scene" never went anywhere.

[Timo]

Doesn't Earth's United Nations have some overtly hostile members at times, who make it clear that the UN should keep out of their business?

Certainly. But if we use this standard, we should argue that the Klingon Empire is a UFP member (quite regardless of the remarks made in the first season of TNG), and that the Cardassian Union is, and that the Ferengi Alliance is, and so forth...

In "Dax", we hear for example the following:

Bad guy Tandro: "The relevant treaty between Klaestron IV and your Federation allows for unilateral extradition."

How much clearer could the writers be about wanting Klaestron IV to be a non-member?

Timo Saloniemi

[GodThingFormerly]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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I know, but it was the brief given to Fred when he started sculpting masks. He was disappointed the "big scene" never went anywhere.

Huh.

TGT

[Therin of Andor]

Timo wrote:

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How much clearer could the writers be about wanting Klaestron IV to be a non-member?

Why should they be clearer? They weren't writing the episode so some fan could build an infallible list of trivia.

[Timo]

Umm, what?

Sorry, I wasn't calling for greater clarity. I was trying to emphasize that the writers were crystal clear about the Klaestron being non-members.

Timo Saloniemi

[Sci]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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Doesn't Earth's United Nations have some overtly hostile members at times, who make it clear that the UN should keep out of their business?

The United Nations isn't a government capable of making binding law and in possession of its own military. It is, in its own words, an international organization and a tool of its Member States.

The Federation, on the other hand, is exactly that -- a federation. A sovereign state that practices federalism. Which is not to say that the UFP might not have Members that want more autonomy than is norm, same way that, for instance, Alaska tends to prefer more autonomy than New Jersey or New York. I just get irritated when people associate the UFP with the UN, even though their symbol is really the only thing that's similar about them.

[Therin of Andor]

Sci wrote:

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I just get irritated when people associate the UFP with the UN, even though their symbol is really the only thing that's similar about them.

Pardon me for irritating you. It was the best example I could think of.

[Christopher]

I think we can't assume that an interstellar federation would function the same way as any government confined to a single planet. It would just be too much vaster in size and distance. There would have to be a greater degree of autonomy for each individual world, simply because it would be impossible for any single body to regulate hundreds of entire planets at once. So no, the Federation isn't like the UN, but it isn't like the United States either. It's something else.

The way I interpret it is that individual UFP worlds have a lot of autonomy over their internal affairs -- that as long as they follow certain basic precepts like having a unified global government, guaranteeing equal rights for everyone, and practicing an enlightened code of justice, they're free to make their own choices about how they manage their own local affairs. The Federation Council is responsible for interstellar affairs, matters that involve more than one world or that involve interactions with powers outside the UFP. That division of responsibility is necessary because if the Council had to deal with the internal affairs of hundreds of entire planets, it would be too overloaded to function.

So the reason the Klaestron wanted the Federation to stay out of their business is because it was an internal matter, the prosecution of a crime committed on their territory. Even if they were a UFP member, they would still have jurisdiction over their own internal legal affairs. One could argue that since Dax was from another member world, that made it an interstate matter falling under federal jurisdiction, but it's hardly unheard of for a state and a federal government to disagree over who has jurisdiction over a particular matter.

[LightningStorm]

Therin of Andor wrote:

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Doesn't Earth's United Nations have some overtly hostile members at times, who make it clear that the UN should keep out of their business?

That depends on if you relate the Federation to the UN with member nations, or to the US. It's a slightly different scenario there. I've always considered it more akin to the US than the UN.

Edit... apparently I didn't notice the page change... Sci beat me to it. By several hours...

move along, nothing to see here.