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Old February 1 2009, 07:36 PM   #16
foravalon
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Re: List of Federation Members

He's not a fount of all knowledge, he knows very little about cheese for example...

...well, unless it's Klingon cheese, and then he could provide a list of several pleasant and many deadly varieties from points all across the Empire.


No, but seriously now. Of Kieth, I can only say this: of all the souls I have encountered in this BBS, his was the most... encyclopedic.


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Old February 1 2009, 09:19 PM   #17
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Re: List of Federation Members

Christopher wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
The list is based on a few key assumptions. To begin with, it assumes that if we see a member of the Federation Starfleet or an employee of the Federation government, then this person's species is probably a Federation Member unless otherwise stated.
I think that's a reckless assumption to make. We know of several Starfleet personnel who aren't from member worlds:
And I'm sure that there are plenty of foreign citizens serving in the United States Armed Forces. Nonetheless, it's safe to presume that the majority of officers and non-coms in the US Armed Forces are citizens of US states. So if I read in a novel that United States Navy Lieutenant James Smith was from Iowa, I'll probably assume that Iowa is a member of the Union unless it's stated otherwise.

Worf,
Worf may have been born on Qo'noS, but he later became a Federation citizen. His legal residence prior to joining Starfleet was Earth, so presumably he's a citizen of United Earth (as a division of the Federation) in addition to being a Klingon citizen.

Nog,
Just kibbitzing here, but, Nog's lived on DS9 for most of his life, and DS9 was Bajoran property under Starfleet administration before Bajor became a Federation Member State. (Has the DS9 Relaunch established whether or not ownership of the station transferred from the Bajoran government to Starfleet?) So, presumably, Nog was either a resident alien under Bajoran law (no pun intended) or a Bajoran citizen. If he actually had Bajoran citizenship, it's entirely possible that he gained Federation citizenship upon Bajor's entry into the UFP.

and arguably Data (since there was no civilization of androids with a seat on the Federation Council).
I think that's extremely questionable. Why would Data's being of a different species mean that he'd be denied citizenship of the colony he was constructed at? If we're going from the presumption that a sentient android is equal under the law, then, logically, his construction would be regarded as the legal equivalent of birth, and he would have the same citizenship as anyone else born on Omicron Theta. Memory Alpha indicates that Omicron Theta was an Earth colony, so presumably Data would, legally, be a citizen of United Earth and therefore receive his representation on the Federation Council through the Federation Councillor from United Earth (from at least 2376 to 2380, Matthew Mazibuko), just like any other Federate born on Omicron Theta.

Algolia - TNG: "Q-Pid"
I don't think that's the right name. I'd assume that Algolians are meant to be from Algol.
Awesome sauce. Thanks!

Christopher wrote: View Post
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But Earth is, and Cogley was citing historical precedents for Federation law.
No, he wasn't.

"Rights, sir – HUMAN rights! The Bible. The Code of Hammurabi. And of Justinian. The Magna Carta. The Constitution of the United States. The Fundamental Declarations of the Martian Colonies. The Statutes of Alpha III. Gentlemen, these documents all speak of RIGHTS! Rights of the accused to a trial by his peers, to be represented by counsel, the rights of cross-examination, but most importantly, the right to be confronted by the witnesses against him – a right to which my client has been denied!"
He was speaking of the universal principle of individual rights. He never said a word about the Federation.

Besides, ancient Israel, Babylon, Rome, England, and the United States are not whole planets, but nations. Who's to say "Alpha III" wasn't the name of a colony of another civilization rather than a separate world? It's too vague a reference to draw any firm conclusions from it. (Although I still think it's probably a reference to Alpha Centauri III, given the historical progression.)
I see what you're saying now. Good point -- you've convinced me. It definitely looks like he was arguing with regards to the evolution of Human law, which indicates that Alpha III was probably originally a Human colony like Mars. I'm not quite willing to conclude that it's shorthand for Alpha Centauri III, but I'm now disregarding my presumption that Alpha III is a Federation Member in its own right -- it could easily be a longstanding colony of United Earth, for instance.


Alpha Proxima - The Brave and the Bold, Book II
Probably an alternate name for Proxima Centauri, which is part of the Alpha Centauri trinary and thus presumably part of the same member state.
I'm not willing to make that assumption unless KRAD says so himself. Having said that, I had gotten the Federation Membership status from Memory Beta's list of Federation Members, but the actual Alpha Proxima article cites no reference to it being a Member in its own right, describing it rather as a colony. I'm afraid that I don't have The Brave and the Bold with me -- can anyone confirm Alpha Proxima's Membership status? I'm removing it from the list until/unless I hear otherwise.

Why are you treating these as different?
Probably because STSC called it "Arbazan," and, because of the sheer number of names I was dealing with, I didn't actually recognize that it's nearly identical to the planet from "The Forsaken" and thus more than likely the same world until you just pointed it out to me! Thanks.
Actually we don't know of a world called Arbaza. We know there's an Arbazan species, but Vulcans aren't from Vulca and humans aren't from Huma.
I was planning on listing it under "Arbazan" since that's what STSC calls it. My general rule is to accept something that Star Charts establishes unless a novel contradicts it.

Arcturus - The Entrophy Effect
Actually The Entropy Effect (no H) established Arcturus as a neutral world between Federation, Klingon, and Romulan territories. Which really doesn't make astronomical sense, seeing as how it's only 37 light-years from Earth. It was TMP that claimed the Arcturians as Federation members, though the portrayal of that species in behind-the-scenes material was rather implausible.
Fair enough. My general rule is to assume that if a member of a species is in Starfleet, his world is probably a UFP Member, but, as you note, The Entropy Effect establishes otherwise, so off the list it goes.

Aulac - Ex Machina
The name of the Aulacri's homeworld has not been established.
Memory Beta lists it as Aulac. I'll use that as a provisional name but note that it hasn't actually been established yet and is therefore subject to change once a novel establishes it.


Camus - STSC
That's an odd one for SC to include, seeing as how Camus II was portrayed onscreen as a dead world whose only occupants were archaeologists.
Awesome sauce, it's off. Thanks!

We know that Catulla was not a UFP member as of "The Way to Eden." The Encyclopedia conjectured that they were applying for membership, but that's purely speculative.
The Memory Beta article indicates that its being a Member is supported by both the Encyclopedia and Worlds of the Federation, so I think we can probably keep it.


Cerberus - STSC
In TAS, Cerberus was a colony. Presumably colonies don't count as distinct members. It's possible Cerberus could've grown to become a member world in the century since, but we have no evidence of that.
Other than it being listed as a Member by Star Charts.

Ophiucus - STSC
Ophiuchus (there's where that extra H goes) is a whole constellation. "Mudd's Women" referred to a planet called Ophiuchus VII, but Harry Mudd may have been shortening a longer name. (And he mispronounced "Ophiuchus." It's "oafy ookus," not "Oh, fie, a cuss.")
I would presume that the name was later transferred to a single system and its planets (the same way "Indian" was transferred from residents of India to residents of North America) for whatever reason. Star Charts says it's a Member, and there's no reason that colony couldn't have grown into one.

JD wrote: View Post
Hmm, would anybody be willing to cofirm Pakwa-than? That's one I've been wondering about ever since we met Ree in Taking Wing.
I don't know if it's been confirmed, but it's been established that there are "only 100" or so Pakwa-than serving in Starfleet. I don't see why that number would be perceived as being unusually low if the Pakwa-than weren't Members. Deanna also describes the Pakwa-than as having greatly enhanced the state of Federation medicine in Taking Wing, if I recall correctly. So I would infer that they are (subject, of course, to later novels' clarification).
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Old February 1 2009, 09:48 PM   #18
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Re: List of Federation Members

Sci wrote: View Post
Fair enough. My general rule is to assume that if a member of a species is in Starfleet, his world is probably a UFP Member, but, as you note, The Entropy Effect establishes otherwise, so off the list it goes.
See, my own take on TMP aliens is that several had joined the UFP between TOS and TMP, and that many had repesentatives serving in Starfleet, perhaps starting off as exchange officers (and then "Ex Machina" has a subplot about Dr Chapel's role in assisting the new UFP races recruits adapt to Starfleet life on the Enterprise).

When I chatted to TOS/TMP makeup man Fred Phillips in 1983, he mentioned that the expensive alien ambassadorial costumes were ordered up because there was a plan to have Nogura addressing a "Journey to Babel"-type banquet in which they are told of the gigantic cloud heading for Earth. That idea didn't progress because Robert Wise found most of the masks wanting, and relegated most to background scenes, where little detail would be evident.

To my delight, a fun character in "The Lost Years", described as an Arcturian, has the same physical description and voice patterns of the alien McCoy meets in the bar in ST III. If you put that guy and a TMP cloned Arcturian next to each other, they have remarkably similar noses. Adding to that, a humanoid female is wearing the leather TMP Arcturian outfit in ST IV's council scenes.

I'd love to see a future novel address the Arcturian cloning issues in light of canonical comments that have arisen in TNG, and all the anti-genetic-tampering from DS9.
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Old February 1 2009, 11:28 PM   #19
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Re: List of Federation Members

Sci wrote: View Post
And I'm sure that there are plenty of foreign citizens serving in the United States Armed Forces. Nonetheless, it's safe to presume that the majority of officers and non-coms in the US Armed Forces are citizens of US states. So if I read in a novel that United States Navy Lieutenant James Smith was from Iowa, I'll probably assume that Iowa is a member of the Union unless it's stated otherwise.
Assuming is dangerous. In the absence of evidence either way, it's better to assume nothing.


Worf may have been born on Qo'noS, but he later became a Federation citizen. His legal residence prior to joining Starfleet was Earth, so presumably he's a citizen of United Earth (as a division of the Federation) in addition to being a Klingon citizen.
Which may also be true of any other Starfleet officer from one of the species on your list. The point is, just because a Starfleet officer belongs to Species X, that doesn't mean that Planet X is a Federation member. The X-ite in question could just as easily be an immigrant or the child of immigrants. What if the Navy lieutenant from Iowa were named Hiroki Nakahara? That wouldn't be evidence that Japan was part of the US.


Just kibbitzing here, but, Nog's lived on DS9 for most of his life, and DS9 was Bajoran property under Starfleet administration before Bajor became a Federation Member State. (Has the DS9 Relaunch established whether or not ownership of the station transferred from the Bajoran government to Starfleet?) So, presumably, Nog was either a resident alien under Bajoran law (no pun intended) or a Bajoran citizen. If he actually had Bajoran citizenship, it's entirely possible that he gained Federation citizenship upon Bajor's entry into the UFP.
But he entered Starfleet years before any of that happened. And the same point applies: the presence of a Ferengi in Starfleet is not evidence that the planet Ferenginar is a Federation member.


I think that's extremely questionable. Why would Data's being of a different species mean that he'd be denied citizenship of the colony he was constructed at?
Again, the point is not about the individual's citizenship, but about whether the individual's presence in Starfleet implies a whole world that's a UFP member. Which it doesn't.


Memory Alpha indicates that Omicron Theta was an Earth colony, so presumably Data would, legally, be a citizen of United Earth and therefore receive his representation on the Federation Council through the Federation Councillor from United Earth (from at least 2376 to 2380, Matthew Mazibuko), just like any other Federate born on Omicron Theta.
Yes, exactly. Colonies are not distinct member worlds and thus don't belong on the list.

The problem is that the stated number of UFP members is just so damn small, considering. The total list of worlds and species we've seen affiliated with the UFP in some way is far greater than the 150-odd membership figure that's been cited. So there must be plenty of worlds that are UFP colonies, protectorates, or allies but not full members. So I'm reluctant to add worlds to the list of full members too casually.


I'm not quite willing to conclude that it's shorthand for Alpha Centauri III, but I'm now disregarding my presumption that Alpha III is a Federation Member in its own right -- it could easily be a longstanding colony of United Earth, for instance.
I refuse to believe that there would be a planet whose full name is "Alpha III." That's just silly. It would have to be Alpha Something III. Unless it's a reference to a space station or something rather than a planet in another star system.


I'm not willing to make that assumption unless KRAD says so himself. Having said that, I had gotten the Federation Membership status from Memory Beta's list of Federation Members, but the actual Alpha Proxima article cites no reference to it being a Member in its own right, describing it rather as a colony.
The thing is, the only star in reality -- the only thing in all of astronomy -- that's called Proxima anything is Proxima Centauri, aka Alpha Centauri C. It's a unique designator (as it would have to be, since it means "closest," and there can only be one closest star). So what else could "Alpha Proxima" be except Proxima Centauri? There aren't any other Proximae to choose from.


Ophiuchus (there's where that extra H goes) is a whole constellation. "Mudd's Women" referred to a planet called Ophiuchus VII, but Harry Mudd may have been shortening a longer name. (And he mispronounced "Ophiuchus." It's "oafy ookus," not "Oh, fie, a cuss.")
I would presume that the name was later transferred to a single system and its planets (the same way "Indian" was transferred from residents of India to residents of North America) for whatever reason.
Unlikely, since there are plenty of other stars in the Ophiuchus constellation. Most likely it's just a shorthand. Easier to say "Ophiuchus Seven" than "Epsilon Ophiuchi Seven."

Ultimately, it's just one more case the TOS writers slapping together spacey-sounding names at random without rhyme or reason. Pet peeve of mine.
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Old February 2 2009, 12:15 AM   #20
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Re: List of Federation Members

Christopher wrote: View Post
The thing is, the only star in reality -- the only thing in all of astronomy -- that's called Proxima anything is Proxima Centauri, aka Alpha Centauri C. It's a unique designator (as it would have to be, since it means "closest," and there can only be one closest star). So what else could "Alpha Proxima" be except Proxima Centauri? There aren't any other Proximae to choose from.
It is a categorical fact that in the next 300 years, nothing else will ever be named "Proxima".
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Old February 2 2009, 12:24 AM   #21
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Re: List of Federation Members

Christopher wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Probably an alternate name for Proxima Centauri, which is part of the Alpha Centauri trinary and thus presumably part of the same member state.
I'm not willing to make that assumption unless KRAD says so himself. Having said that, I had gotten the Federation Membership status from Memory Beta's list of Federation Members, but the actual Alpha Proxima article cites no reference to it being a Member in its own right, describing it rather as a colony. I'm afraid that I don't have The Brave and the Bold with me -- can anyone confirm Alpha Proxima's Membership status? I'm removing it from the list until/unless I hear otherwise.

The thing is, the only star in reality -- the only thing in all of astronomy -- that's called Proxima anything is Proxima Centauri, aka Alpha Centauri C. It's a unique designator (as it would have to be, since it means "closest," and there can only be one closest star). So what else could "Alpha Proxima" be except Proxima Centauri? There aren't any other Proximae to choose from.
A wise choice not to make that assumption Sci. It looks like you are correct in this matter and it appears that christopher is mistaken. Sorry C-Bizzle. As others have said elsewhere, regardless of whatever fan handwave someone may choose to invent, in this case regarding Alpha Proxima and Proxima Centauri being one and the same, what apparently matters is the Author's intention; and given the text, it doesn't appear that this was the Author's intention.

From The Brave and the Bold by Keith R.A. DeCandido:
Takeshewada turned to Masada. “Talk to me about Proxima, Guillermo.”

Masada reached behind his head and yanked on his ponytail, which he always did right before giving a report. “Your basic Class-M planet—part of the big colonization push after warp drive was discovered, made part of the Federation, gobby gobby gobby. Nothing particularly notable.”

Decker could hear the undercurrent in Masada’s voice, and knew he was dying to add, Unlike, say, a neutron star. “Guillermo, knock it off.”

Sounding nonplussed, Masada said, “Sir?”

“We know you’re angry about cutting the neutron star survey short. Get over it and give a proper report.”

Straightening in his chair, Masada pulled on his ponytail again. “Yes, sir,” he said quickly, and peered into his sensor hood. Blue light shone on his features as he read off the data contained therein. “Alpha Proxima II was colonized in 2189 by the S.S. Esperanza. They set up two cities, both on the northern continent. In fact, the northern polar region’s the only place that’s really comfortable for humans—rest of the planet’s either too hot or covered in water. Current population is about one million four hundred thousand. The government consists of a planetary council run by a chief speaker, and they also have representation on the Federation Council.” He looked up. “You want their chief exports?”

Chuckling, Decker said, “I’ll pass, thanks.”
It also states elsewhere that Beta Proxima is the nearest Star system and is a Neutron Star. Over all Decker doesn't seem very familiar with the world
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Old February 2 2009, 12:40 AM   #22
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Re: List of Federation Members

foravalon wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post

I'm not willing to make that assumption unless KRAD says so himself. Having said that, I had gotten the Federation Membership status from Memory Beta's list of Federation Members, but the actual Alpha Proxima article cites no reference to it being a Member in its own right, describing it rather as a colony. I'm afraid that I don't have The Brave and the Bold with me -- can anyone confirm Alpha Proxima's Membership status? I'm removing it from the list until/unless I hear otherwise.

The thing is, the only star in reality -- the only thing in all of astronomy -- that's called Proxima anything is Proxima Centauri, aka Alpha Centauri C. It's a unique designator (as it would have to be, since it means "closest," and there can only be one closest star). So what else could "Alpha Proxima" be except Proxima Centauri? There aren't any other Proximae to choose from.
A wise choice not to make that assumption Sci. It looks like you are correct in this matter and it appears that christopher is mistaken. Sorry C-Bizzle. As others have said elsewhere, regardless of whatever fan handwave someone may choose to invent, in this case regarding Alpha Proxima and Proxima Centauri being one and the same, what apparently matters is the Author's intention; and given the text, it doesn't appear that this was the Author's intention.

From The Brave and the Bold by Keith R.A. DeCandido:
Takeshewada turned to Masada. “Talk to me about Proxima, Guillermo.”

Masada reached behind his head and yanked on his ponytail, which he always did right before giving a report. “Your basic Class-M planet—part of the big colonization push after warp drive was discovered, made part of the Federation, gobby gobby gobby. Nothing particularly notable.”

Decker could hear the undercurrent in Masada’s voice, and knew he was dying to add, Unlike, say, a neutron star. “Guillermo, knock it off.”

Sounding nonplussed, Masada said, “Sir?”

“We know you’re angry about cutting the neutron star survey short. Get over it and give a proper report.”

Straightening in his chair, Masada pulled on his ponytail again. “Yes, sir,” he said quickly, and peered into his sensor hood. Blue light shone on his features as he read off the data contained therein. “Alpha Proxima II was colonized in 2189 by the S.S. Esperanza. They set up two cities, both on the northern continent. In fact, the northern polar region’s the only place that’s really comfortable for humans—rest of the planet’s either too hot or covered in water. Current population is about one million four hundred thousand. The government consists of a planetary council run by a chief speaker, and they also have representation on the Federation Council.” He looked up. “You want their chief exports?”

Chuckling, Decker said, “I’ll pass, thanks.”
Hm. I don't know. If they have representation on the Council, that strongly implies that they're a Member State in their own right. (On the other hand, if they're part of Alpha Centauri, their representation on the Council would come through the Federation Councillor from Alpha Centauri.) KRAD, can you resolve this dispute?
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Old February 2 2009, 02:03 AM   #23
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Re: List of Federation Members

I intended for Alpha Proxima II to be just what I said it was in the text, and I appreciate foravalon actually, y'know, using the text.

So yes, they're Federation members (if they weren't, Decker and Kirk wouldn't have had the authority to declare martial law), and no, they're not part of Alpha Centauri.
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Old February 2 2009, 02:08 AM   #24
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Re: List of Federation Members

I guess there are two matters at hand, one being whether or not Alpha Proxima is in fact located in the nearest star system to Sol, Alpha Centauri. I think several points in the Author's story indicate it isn't, unless there's a neutron star nearby us that we're unaware of, and/or Matt Decker is completely ignorant about our celestial next door neighbors for the last couple centuries.

The other matter pertains to whether or not Alpha Proxima is a Member World in it's own right, as TBatB would seem to show, with its own individual representation on the Federation Council, or whether they are some random colony that's grouped in with several others.

EDIT: And I'm a Johnny-come-lately... What KRAD said.

btw, Just got a Singular Destiny, Yeah Baby! But when's Issue #2 of Farscape coming out?
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Old February 2 2009, 02:59 AM   #25
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Re: List of Federation Members

KRAD wrote: View Post
I intended for Alpha Proxima II to be just what I said it was in the text, and I appreciate foravalon actually, y'know, using the text.

So yes, they're Federation members (if they weren't, Decker and Kirk wouldn't have had the authority to declare martial law), and no, they're not part of Alpha Centauri.
Which leaves the name of their system rather inexplicable. It means "First Closest."

Oh well, at least it isn't something like Alpha Omicron or Delta Theta. Those are more like sorority names than star names.
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Old February 2 2009, 03:06 AM   #26
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Re: List of Federation Members

Christopher wrote: View Post
KRAD wrote: View Post
I intended for Alpha Proxima II to be just what I said it was in the text, and I appreciate foravalon actually, y'know, using the text.

So yes, they're Federation members (if they weren't, Decker and Kirk wouldn't have had the authority to declare martial law), and no, they're not part of Alpha Centauri.
Which leaves the name of their system rather inexplicable. It means "First Closest."

Oh well, at least it isn't something like Alpha Omicron or Delta Theta. Those are more like sorority names than star names.
Personally, I'm of the opinion that star names in Trek are like stardates -- we shouldn't take them too seriously and they aren't meant to stand up to too much scrutiny.
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Old February 2 2009, 03:24 AM   #27
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Re: List of Federation Members

Well put Sci.
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Old February 2 2009, 03:48 AM   #28
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Re: List of Federation Members

Sci wrote: View Post
JD wrote: View Post
Hmm, would anybody be willing to cofirm Pakwa-than? That's one I've been wondering about ever since we met Ree in Taking Wing.
I don't know if it's been confirmed, but it's been established that there are "only 100" or so Pakwa-than serving in Starfleet. I don't see why that number would be perceived as being unusually low if the Pakwa-than weren't Members. Deanna also describes the Pakwa-than as having greatly enhanced the state of Federation medicine in Taking Wing, if I recall correctly. So I would infer that they are (subject, of course, to later novels' clarification).
Cool, thanks for that Sci. I haven't read anything Titan, other than Destiny, since SoD came so my memory of the books isn't the greatest. And it does certainly sound like they are members to me. I would think that anytime thre is a big deal made over how few of a species there are in Starfleet then it would be pretty likely that they are members. Except of course when it's done in the reverse, and it's a big deal that there are so many members in the fleet, like Worf being the only Kingon, Nog being the only Ferengi, and Dakal being the only Cardassian in SF, or the number of Bajorans pre-membership.
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Old February 2 2009, 05:20 AM   #29
Avro Arrow
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Re: List of Federation Members

Christoper wrote:
I refuse to believe that there would be a planet whose full name is "Alpha III." That's just silly. It would have to be Alpha Something III. Unless it's a reference to a space station or something rather than a planet in another star system.
Yeah, it is kinda silly. Unfortunately, TOS did this a fair bit: Beta III, Omega IV, Omicron IV. And TMP gave us Delta IV. So, the original episode writer did probably intend for it to be a planet whose full name is Alpha III.

Sci, impressive list. I don't have much to add, but since you mention Deneva's destruction in its entry, just thought I'd mention that
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Old February 2 2009, 05:41 AM   #30
LightningStorm
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Re: List of Federation Members

Christopher wrote: View Post
Which leaves the name of their system rather inexplicable. It means "First Closest."

Maybe it's the first one closest to Alpha Centauri as opposed to the first one closest to Sol?
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