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Old January 24 2009, 01:19 AM   #31
swaaye
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

Deks wrote: View Post
What did we see in Generations with Riker in command?
One measly phaser shot which did some damage to the BOP shields.
Why not fire 10 torpedoes in a Sierra pattern along with a full-out phaser barrage instead and turn the BOP into minced meat?

Did the BOP's shields suddenly increase by a factor of 100 allowing their to be invulnerable completely while also dumbing down Riker and everyone else on the Enterprise-D?
Apparently so.
That entire battle is just agonizing. Uhg. What a way for the D to go... Reminds me of the awful TNG ep "Rascals" in which the Ferengi take the D with 2 BoPs and almost no fight.

These ship vs. ship arguments are pointless considering the ships are always portrayed as as powerful as the writers desire. And Voyager is the land of endless deus ex machina plots (worse than TNG in that regard I think).
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Old January 24 2009, 03:04 AM   #32
kent
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

That's precisely the case. And this isn't a pointless argument, star trek is one of the sci fi shows that actually give figures for things like the tactical systems. sometimes they are a little off and contradictory, but in general you're able to piece together what does what.

One thing i will NEVER understand though is starfleets decision to suspend production of Galaxy class ships.

It seems utterly wasteful to devote so much time and energy and expense into a ship that's meant for expansion and refitting to keep up with tech advancements, and has a hull life expectency of 100 years with regular refits.

Not to mention, on standard Galaxy class ships, a quarter of the internal space is left empty for expansion. The Galaxy class is a very flexible design and would more than be able to keep up. As for the weaponry, you can install a couple quantum/photorp launcher in place of the old ones, and even extra launchers say on deck 11 or 12, and on the aft neck.

The phasers could be uprated to be more on par with a Sovereign as well. You just uprate the warp core and modulate the EPS taps better so the phasers and subsytems can handle it. With slipstream drive using the deflector dish, and advancements in computing technology, you could theoretically use the saucer deflector to allow the saucer to achieve warp speeds as well.

If the Intrepid is a smaller Galaxy, and the Defiant and Prometheus the primary combat ships, and the Galaxy who does everything, what the hell is the purpose of the Sovereign?? It seems wasteful to get this spankin' new ship that probably costs more to build because it's newer with newer technology than the Galaxy class, or at the least uses up resources, when you have ships that already fit the roles needed and are more flexible in their design.

So stupid.
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Old January 24 2009, 06:02 AM   #33
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

kent wrote: View Post
That's precisely the case. And this isn't a pointless argument, star trek is one of the sci fi shows that actually give figures for things like the tactical systems. sometimes they are a little off and contradictory, but in general you're able to piece together what does what.

One thing i will NEVER understand though is starfleets decision to suspend production of Galaxy class ships.

It seems utterly wasteful to devote so much time and energy and expense into a ship that's meant for expansion and refitting to keep up with tech advancements, and has a hull life expectency of 100 years with regular refits.

Not to mention, on standard Galaxy class ships, a quarter of the internal space is left empty for expansion. The Galaxy class is a very flexible design and would more than be able to keep up. As for the weaponry, you can install a couple quantum/photorp launcher in place of the old ones, and even extra launchers say on deck 11 or 12, and on the aft neck.

The phasers could be uprated to be more on par with a Sovereign as well. You just uprate the warp core and modulate the EPS taps better so the phasers and subsytems can handle it. With slipstream drive using the deflector dish, and advancements in computing technology, you could theoretically use the saucer deflector to allow the saucer to achieve warp speeds as well.

If the Intrepid is a smaller Galaxy, and the Defiant and Prometheus the primary combat ships, and the Galaxy who does everything, what the hell is the purpose of the Sovereign?? It seems wasteful to get this spankin' new ship that probably costs more to build because it's newer with newer technology than the Galaxy class, or at the least uses up resources, when you have ships that already fit the roles needed and are more flexible in their design.

So stupid.

Given that about all we've ever really seen the Sovereign class do is battle, I personally believe that the whole point of the design was to create a larger class of warship to complement the Defiant's more minuscule profile... but that's just a wild guess... Honestly, I'm a puzzled as you by it.
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Old January 24 2009, 07:55 AM   #34
Infern0
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

I really liked the galaxy class ship, I never really understood the defiant, since I personally belive A galaxy Class would defeat a Defiant Class in battle, I think soverign class was just to have a nice new ship for FC
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Old January 24 2009, 10:47 PM   #35
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

With Trek, size of a star-ship is not a decisive factor.
Most of the things that matter in size when SF ships are concerned are the amount of materials, torpedoes and crews a ship can carry.

I mean sure, you will also have classes of ships on which size will be a decisive factor when it comes to how much raw power they will be able to churn out, but at the same time ... technology advances, and the reason why I can see SF building downsized versions of larger vessels that have same power output for example would be to bring up their fleet back on par as fast as possible, and be more prepared if combat situations arise.

Deus Ex machina aside, the Intrepid class is a sensible design.
Voyager was never stated to be a scout ship of any kind.
In fact, Neelix mentioned in one of the episodes when acting as an ambassador that one of the ship's functions is deep-space exploration.

Also, I fail to see why would it be impossible for the Intrepid to be on par with a Galaxy class when the Defiant has an impressive fire-power output at it's disposal while being far smaller.

I don't think SF would completely stop production of Galaxy class ships ... but I also don't think they would be in a hurry to construct as many as possible.
The Sovereign (despite it's combat capabilities) is still a large enough vessel that can easily fit into the roles of a Galaxy class ship as well, while being easier/faster to construct.
SF likely wanted a far more efficient all-round design that would be more combat capable after all.

Besides, I think the Dominion War prompted SF that they needed small, but much more powerful ships at their disposal that would be able to fit exploratory roles and still pack a punch.
Obviously the Defiant class ships can be used for border patrols much more effectively instead of sending an Intrepid or a Galaxy that could be much more useful in exploratory department.

Prometheus ... primarily combat oriented design for deep space tactical missions (as stated in the episode) obviously with same offensive/defensive capabilities of a Sovereign class ... yet being MUCH smaller (even smaller than the Intrepid if I'm not mistaken).
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Old January 25 2009, 07:11 AM   #36
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

Larger than Intrepid is promethius
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Old January 26 2009, 12:59 AM   #37
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

The Prometheus class has 15 decks like the Intrepid class, it's merely longer with a smaller crew compliment to support it's extra combat capabilities.

Deks: There is a reason why the Intrepid class is as powerful, which i mentioned before. It's pretty well known that the height of a warpcore generally creates more efficient power output. The Defiant class is able to achieve it's power by running the matter and antimatter up and down in loops to simulate a much higher warp core before reaching reaction. The Intrepid does it by utilizing the swirl design, lining the warp core with a dilithium lattice creating a 6 deck high warp reaction chamber yielding far more power than would otherwise be creating with a fixed focus reaction chamber.

Another thing as well, the only actual evidence I have seen that clearly says what type of ship it is was in the writers bible. There, it said the Intrepid class was a medium cruiser deep space exploration vessel. This makes sense when you compare it to the refit Constitution. The vessels are similar in size with the Intrepid actually having more internal volume. The neck in the Constitution was pretty much useless so if you take that out it eliminates something like 4 or 6 decks, making it a total of around 15 decks like the Intrepid class.

The reason why it has more internal volume versus the Constitution class is because it's primary and secondary hull are larger. The Primary hull on the Constituion refit was a concave design, which limits the amount of interior room, and wasn't as long as the Intrepid class. Wider, sure, but not as generally long or as big. The Intrepid class' primary hull was convex, yielding more interior room in a longer and generally larger package.

That said, the Constition was a heavy cruiser/battleship, so taking the size comparison in to account, it makes 100% sense that the Intrepid class is a medium cruiser/deep space exploration vessel, with the combat capabilities of a Galaxy class starship, and with some refitting even a Sovereign class if you take into acount the Prometheus class which has the same deck height (though this would be pointless with the advent of the Prometheus class.)

I agree with you Deks that they wouldn't entirely suspend the Galaxy class. I just think that because of it's original design purpose it's a WAY more flexible design than a Sovereign. And I still think the Sovereign is pointless when you have the Galaxy class, Intrepid class, Defiant class, Akira class, and Prometheus class as the premeir classes of Starfleet (those classes of ship are pretty much support all the major roles the Federation needs them to fill.) Making the Sovereign class seems superfluous and wasteful, and probably more expensive in the long run, and definately contridictory to Starfleets peaceful nature(the thing is a DEFINATE Heavy cruiser/battleship, with scientific applications on the side.) I know the Defiant is also a war ship and the Prometheus is too, but they're way less imposing and thus more compliant to Starfleet's peaceful nature. the Sovereign class just looks MEAN. But that part of my argument is just opinion, I still stand by the superfluous argument to the Sovereign class.
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Old January 26 2009, 08:23 AM   #38
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

Ezri II wrote: View Post
During DS9 you never did see an Intrepid class in the battle.
I always wondered why this was too. Very odd

Maybe they didn't want to confuse the viewers
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Old January 26 2009, 12:26 PM   #39
Timo
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

What did we see in Generations with Riker in command?
One measly phaser shot which did some damage to the BOP shields.
Why not fire 10 torpedoes in a Sierra pattern along with a full-out phaser barrage instead and turn the BOP into minced meat?
Umm, the sound effects of that fight suggest that Riker was firing more or less constantly.

Did the BOP's shields suddenly increase by a factor of 100 allowing their to be invulnerable completely while also dumbing down Riker and everyone else on the Enterprise-D? Apparently so.
I wouldn't wonder a bit. After all, the fact that "Our shields are holding!!" came as a joyous surprise to the two mistresses of the ship, after they had been convinced the attack would be suicide. It wasn't, thanks to Soran supplying an offensive ace. It would be eminently logical for him to supply a defensive one as well, to upgrade the shields.

Actually, Star Trek:The magazine had an article of the gelpacks, and they specifically stated neural fibers (the mag is also officially authorized.)

As i said before, the design lineage of the Intrepid class was also in Star Trek the magazine
I'm sorry but I don't put much credence on this source when it comes to describing the onscreen universe.

In yet another Star Trek Mag article, the ships is said to have high-powered phaser banks. Putting those two together it''s also reasonable to assume Voyager is equipped with at least some type of phaser with similar output to a Galaxy.
But that makes so little sense. How could a small ship mount as big a gun as a large ship?

Also, I think it's reasonable to assume Admiral Ross' ship was the USS Bellepheron. If he had a ship he could fight with, why would he use a different ship to be ferried in?
Typically, a courier ship has different attributes than a combatant. We know the Intrepid class is ridiculously fast, so that makes her a good courier. We don't know that she would be particularly well armed or shielded, though, and we have never seen her like in Alpha Quadrant combat so we might well assume the exact opposite.

And why would an Admiral even have a personal ship? He'd be using whatever ship was available in the combat formation he commanded - and typically, he wouldn't choose the most powerful combatant, but rather a ship that has good command facilities and good protection. Today's Admirals may command from carriers as well as from large air defense destroyers, but they also commandfrom unarmed former amphibious assault ships.

Each consequent ship is a descendent of the advanced ships before it.
Not in the real world. Instead, every ship design is a unique compromise optimized for the fighting needs of the day, often discarding some advantages that the previous ships had so that she could have different, more current advantages aboard instead. In many key ways, today's surface warships have armament and armor that is massively weaker than their WWII or even WWI counterparts: sometimes they compensate by introducing powerful weapons or protection systems from wholly different categories, but sometimes they are deliberately built weak because that's how they stand a better chance of winning modern wars.

One thing i will NEVER understand though is starfleets decision to suspend production of Galaxy class ships.
What suspension? If it's the thing alluded to in the TNG Tech Manual, it sure didn't last long, as DS9 already shows multiple new Galaxies left and right.

Also, I fail to see why would it be impossible for the Intrepid to be on par with a Galaxy class when the Defiant has an impressive fire-power output at it's disposal while being far smaller.
So the Defiant is supposed to be the match of the Galaxy now? Hardly. We have no indication that these smaller ships can do what the larger ones can. The Defiant at best confronted a single Cardassian Keldon, while the Enterprise-D was supposed to tackle 15 Galors and carry the day. The Intrepid would logically fall somewhere in the middle.

Obviously the Defiant class ships can be used for border patrols much more effectively instead of sending an Intrepid or a Galaxy that could be much more useful in exploratory department.
Hmm... Border patrol in a ship that induces cabin fever? I'd much rather send an Intrepid, for greater endurance and greater flexibility and independence. The Defiant in DS9 excelled in short solo sorties.

The Prometheus class has 15 decks like the Intrepid class, it's merely longer with a smaller crew compliment to support it's extra combat capabilities.
How would a small crew "support" any extra capabilities?

Also, we know nothing about the size of that ship's crew. The only example we ever saw up close was hijacked during a test cruise, so the unknown number of Starfleet corpses aboard was probably way different from the regular complement.

As for why Starfleet would have both Galaxy and Sovereign, they also have Akira and Galaxy at the same time. Akira is about the size of the Sovereign. Probably Starfleet simply doesn't believe in the "single type for simplicity" credo, aka the "all eggs in the same basket" doctrine.

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Old January 26 2009, 03:36 PM   #40
Deks
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

The sound effects were mostly of the Enterprise-D being pummeled and taking damage, not of it firing back a lot.

And I fairly doubt that Soran was able to upgrade the BoP extensively.
Granted, he would be able to construct shielding for the trilithium torpedo so it doesn't burn up as it approaches the star ... then again, even with those enhancements to the BoP (provided they were done to begin with), the ship shouldn't have held out as long as it did in battle.

The crew also acted in a very idiotic fashion. Geordi was held captive by the klingon sisters for some time and the crew knew of their deceitful tactics.
Why didn't they bother to check the visor if it's been tampered with?
Also, rotating shield modulations very fast even with Geordi looking at them would likely not allow every shot to go through the shields.

Again, as for the Galaxy class production being suspended ... I don't think it would happen.
Sure that SF wouldn't really build as many as before right after the war so they can first replace existing losses with smaller/powerful ships of the new era.

I never said the Defiant is a match for the Galaxy class. I said it has an impressive fire power packed into a very small design compared to the Galaxy class.
Then again, Defiant was able to destroy a Jem'Hadaar bug with several shots, while the Galaxy class that fought a same design in an episode before, didn't do any real damage firing it's supposedly much more powerful phaser beams, and was actually blown up with a suicide run from the bug it was trying to dispatch.

There's a reason Defiant was designated a 'warship' after all. It would likely present a real threat to the Galaxy class (as it did to numerous Cardassian 'warships' ... poor as they are).
Whether or not it would win in a matchout, I don't know. Probably not, but victory isn't always dependant on who has a bigger ship.

I'd personally use Defiants and Saber class ships for border patrols that are close to star-bases and various space installations while sending larger ships more often to exploratory assignments.

SF ships can operate in a number of fields despite their designs. Of course that specific designs will excel better in one area or the other, depending on class (they'll be more efficient), while the Sovereign, Galaxy, Intrepid and Nebula, seem to be 'jack of all trades' type of ships.
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Old January 26 2009, 03:59 PM   #41
Timo
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

And I fairly doubt that Soran was able to upgrade the BoP extensively.
Granted, he would be able to construct shielding for the trilithium torpedo so it doesn't burn up as it approaches the star ... then again, even with those enhancements to the BoP (provided they were done to begin with), the ship shouldn't have held out as long as it did in battle.
The latter may be true, but the former should be considered a factor here. Soran was years ahead the Federation in many things technical, and he had somehow convinced the Twisted Sisters that attacking the Enterprise wouldn't be suicide - so why not take at face value the surprise that everybody experienced when Riker's first shot didn't end the fight?

The crew also acted in a very idiotic fashion. Geordi was held captive by the klingon sisters for some time and the crew knew of their deceitful tactics.
Why didn't they bother to check the visor if it's been tampered with?
But that assumes that the tampering would be detectable. Soran would see to it that it wasn't.

Also, rotating shield modulations very fast even with Geordi looking at them would likely not allow every shot to go through the shields.
We have no idea if that's technologically possible. It sounds quite plausible that shields just can't do that sort of thing: the constant retuning might either wreck the hardware, or then result in shields that are constantly out of whack and give little protection. And rotation has never worked too well as a defense against anybody, neither the Borg nor the Jem'Hadar, so it just makes sense that it wouldn't work here.

Again, as for the Galaxy class production being suspended ... I don't think it would happen.
But again, what suspension? DS9 shows more Galaxies than the six the TNG Tech Man speaks about. And there's no real reason to think that the Sovereign would literally succeed, let alone displace, the Galaxy class. It's just another parallel design, only somewhat newer than most - perhaps an Excelsior replacement at a long last, with many similar solutions?

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Old January 26 2009, 07:02 PM   #42
Deks
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

We only know that Soran developed a way to affect the Nexus trajectory.
Almost any decent scientist within the Federation and with same goals as Soran would likely be able to achieve a same effect.

The movie never really portrays if Soran's civilization was much more advanced compared to the Federation of the 24th century.
Remember, the Feds were able to pretty much catch up to everybody in the AQ and BQ by the 23rd century.
In the 24th, their technology was considered to be most developed compared to the neighbors (at least in TNG era as per Q himself), and rivaled decently with numerous DQ races (including the Dominion ... at least just before/for the duration/after the war).

True that it's a question if Soran's tampering would be detectable ... Soran was working for the Federation (or that's the impression I got from the movie) for a long time and would likely be aware of numerous standard procedures ... however, the crew of the Enterprise knew what Soran was trying to do and that he was on-board the BoP, along with the fact Ursa and Be'Tor were not conventional Klingons.
In my perspective, the writers goofed up big time. If the battle was fought between an upgraded/modified K'Tinga or Vorcha class ship, then the battle would have been more convincing ... a BoP is stretching it a lot with 0 explanation behind the whole 'farce'.

When the Klingons noted their shields were holding, that's just something that happens in battle (doesn't mean their shields didn't lose % during the hit).
Even an old ship would be able to withstand a hit or two before falling into submission.
Within the confines of Trek universe, the BoP should have been destroyed very fast.
Fact remains that Riker knew the Enterprise-D was compromised with it's shields down, and I still don't understand why he never simply unleashed a full barrage onto the ship (maybe if it was explained that the BoP disabled their weapons with first several hits ... then it would likely pass).
In an alternate timeline, the battleship Enterprise was able to destroy a K'Vort class ship (larger/more powerful BoP with raised wings) with several torpedoes and phaser shots. It's very likely a measly BoP (even with some upgrades) would fair extremely poor against a Galaxy class ship.

Rotating shields very fast was done by Data in BoBW for example during the confrontation with the Borg which repelled their draining tractor beam.
It didn't affect the hardware in any capacity, and it definitely wouldn't later on since the technology in question underwent upgrades ever since BoBW and would likely be able to do so even faster (not to mention make it part of standard combat operations ... at least, it would be the sensible thing to do).
Shield modulation/frequency changes worked well against the Borg initially in TNG ... and again in 'Dark Frontier'.
It just depends on how fast you can rotate the frequencies to be able to stay ahead of the Borg and prevent them from adapting (at least temporarily) which gives you an opportunity to strike back.
The Dominion was a different story because they utilized phased-polaron beams.
If the name alone is any indication, then it stands to reason no shield modulation worked because the nature of the weapons was different (perhaps it was able to achieve partial phase) compared to phasers/disruptors/borg beams ... which is why no frequency changing would work. The shields would have to undergo re-fit's in order to compensate for the phasing effect automatically.
I think the Defiant's shields were effective in this regard in 'the Search' because it utilized anti-borg technology to begin with. Fleet-wide changes didn't ensue obviously as SF has a tendency not to do that unless a threat is imminent (putting the Defiant on ice because the Borg were not an imminent threat comes to mind).

I only mentioned that it's likely the Galaxy class would not be suspended from further production because someone else mentioned they were.
I don't hold onto the premise that Galaxies were ever considered to be phased out of production.
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Last edited by Deks; January 26 2009 at 07:18 PM.
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Old January 26 2009, 08:14 PM   #43
kent
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

Timo wrote: View Post
What did we see in Generations with Riker in command?
One measly phaser shot which did some damage to the BOP shields.
Why not fire 10 torpedoes in a Sierra pattern along with a full-out phaser barrage instead and turn the BOP into minced meat?
Umm, the sound effects of that fight suggest that Riker was firing more or less constantly.

Did the BOP's shields suddenly increase by a factor of 100 allowing their to be invulnerable completely while also dumbing down Riker and everyone else on the Enterprise-D? Apparently so.
I wouldn't wonder a bit. After all, the fact that "Our shields are holding!!" came as a joyous surprise to the two mistresses of the ship, after they had been convinced the attack would be suicide. It wasn't, thanks to Soran supplying an offensive ace. It would be eminently logical for him to supply a defensive one as well, to upgrade the shields.



I'm sorry but I don't put much credence on this source when it comes to describing the onscreen universe.



But that makes so little sense. How could a small ship mount as big a gun as a large ship?



Typically, a courier ship has different attributes than a combatant. We know the Intrepid class is ridiculously fast, so that makes her a good courier. We don't know that she would be particularly well armed or shielded, though, and we have never seen her like in Alpha Quadrant combat so we might well assume the exact opposite.

And why would an Admiral even have a personal ship? He'd be using whatever ship was available in the combat formation he commanded - and typically, he wouldn't choose the most powerful combatant, but rather a ship that has good command facilities and good protection. Today's Admirals may command from carriers as well as from large air defense destroyers, but they also commandfrom unarmed former amphibious assault ships.



Not in the real world. Instead, every ship design is a unique compromise optimized for the fighting needs of the day, often discarding some advantages that the previous ships had so that she could have different, more current advantages aboard instead. In many key ways, today's surface warships have armament and armor that is massively weaker than their WWII or even WWI counterparts: sometimes they compensate by introducing powerful weapons or protection systems from wholly different categories, but sometimes they are deliberately built weak because that's how they stand a better chance of winning modern wars.



What suspension? If it's the thing alluded to in the TNG Tech Manual, it sure didn't last long, as DS9 already shows multiple new Galaxies left and right.



So the Defiant is supposed to be the match of the Galaxy now? Hardly. We have no indication that these smaller ships can do what the larger ones can. The Defiant at best confronted a single Cardassian Keldon, while the Enterprise-D was supposed to tackle 15 Galors and carry the day. The Intrepid would logically fall somewhere in the middle.

Obviously the Defiant class ships can be used for border patrols much more effectively instead of sending an Intrepid or a Galaxy that could be much more useful in exploratory department.
Hmm... Border patrol in a ship that induces cabin fever? I'd much rather send an Intrepid, for greater endurance and greater flexibility and independence. The Defiant in DS9 excelled in short solo sorties.

The Prometheus class has 15 decks like the Intrepid class, it's merely longer with a smaller crew compliment to support it's extra combat capabilities.
How would a small crew "support" any extra capabilities?

Also, we know nothing about the size of that ship's crew. The only example we ever saw up close was hijacked during a test cruise, so the unknown number of Starfleet corpses aboard was probably way different from the regular complement.

As for why Starfleet would have both Galaxy and Sovereign, they also have Akira and Galaxy at the same time. Akira is about the size of the Sovereign. Probably Starfleet simply doesn't believe in the "single type for simplicity" credo, aka the "all eggs in the same basket" doctrine.

Timo Saloniemi


You can pack as big a punch in a small ship as a larger ship with advances in technology, like the Intrepid's warp core. The Sovereign for example is 24 decks in height versus the 42 decks of a galaxy, yet is more powerful....RIGHT there is pretty much proof that disproves what you said. The Intrepid has been said BY the producers to be a smaller counterpart to the galaxy almos equal tactically. Not completely equal, but close. And like i said before, Paris is QUOTED in an episode stating the ship was built for battle. And your reference to the real world is a little silly...ITS STAR TREK. Obviously we aren't talking about the real world lol. And remember i'm quoting actual episodes and an officially authorized magazine and articles that said these things, and like the writers bible stating the fact the Intrepid is a medium cruiser/deep space explorer.

And yes the Defiant class could go up against the Galaxy class. The Defiant class has been shown on numerous occasions going up against ships more powerful and larger. It's warp core is advanced and it's pulse phaser couplings run right past the warp plasma conduits, boosting the standard power by something like 50% or so. Not to mention they are armed with ablative hull armor (a new more advanced kind) and quantum torpedo's, not to mention it could run circles around a galaxy class. On numerous occasions the Defiant went up against dominion battleships, which were generally more powerful than a Galaxy class, in addition to the other reasons. Also, if you recall, the Defiant went up against the USS Lakota, refitted with more powerful phasers than a galaxy and quantum torpedo's. Granted it was a stalemate, but the Defiant was again SMALLER, yet could take on a ship larger and refitted with advanced weaponry. And it took the Lakota down. It didn't just go up against the Keldon class...did you watch the show? It went up against dominion warships, attack bugships, and Vorcha class klingon battle cruisers, and in a parralell univers against a ship bigger than even the Negvhar! And before it's argued it was a parrallel univers, the design schematics were stolen from the universe we know by the parrallel universe Obrien, or Smiley. So the ship was built to starfleet specs.


The admiral would have his own ship obviously, he was a fleet admiral. Remember in the alst episode of TNG Riker was a fleet admiral and chose the refit Galaxy class as his personal flagship. Again, star trek NOT real world. As for the Prometheus being 15 decks, you can reasonably assum based on the size of the window's and phaser strips, and the size of the bridge, that it's 15 decks. I believe it was also stated somewhere in the episode as well.


I'm sorry you dont put much credence in a magazine officially authorized by paramount, who BTW calls the shots on Star Trek. I'd also like to point out that the magazine actually calls the people on star trek, as well as interviews the producers, cast, and sometimes crew. So the information is pretty valid. I would agree with you if the magazine was not authroized. But if that's not enough you can look at onscreen evidence.

Examples:

The USS Voyager went up against three or four Kazon motherships, and was winning, in one of the major battles in Voyager. If it wasn't for internal sabotage they would have probably one. In addition to that supporting the argument that Voyager was a strong ship, it also shows that LARGER ships can be weaker than SMALLER ships.

Phasers and their components aren't always bigger = better. Advancements in technology allows for smaller compnents being more powerful than older larger ones. I can't beleive you don't realize this...I mean if you WANT to compare to the real world, look at laptops and personal computers now versus the huge ones back in the sixties? Or missles in the army/navy that are smaller, and even remote controlled, versus technology that was like 50 years ago. Nanites, a perfect example of smaller doesn't equal less powerful or productive. As technology advances things tend to get smaller. Also, they are called Bio-Neural, NEURAL AS IN BRAIN, gel packs. Is it really so difficult to make the logical next step in assuming it uses artificial nerual fibers?? It says NEURAL in the NAME of the gel packs. I don't think star trek felt the need to explain that any further, and i'm pretty sure they assumed we'd be smart enough to make the leap lol.

Tom paris, quoted in an episode, stating that the Intrepid class was built for combat. That's a tough one to argue, and if you want to go with on screen evidence there you go.

As for the prometheus class, if it's THAT gunned up then it probably has a large torpedo compliment. It also probably has heavier phaser components, though that wouldn't be the main thing because they wouldn't be THAT much bigger really. It has extra warp cores, and a very large shuttlebay, and can also separate into three smaller ships, which means each section has to have it's own dueterium and antimatter supply, as well as impulse engines which also means more fusion generators. Granted we don't know much about the crew compliment, but with all the extra components needed to operate as a battleship and in seperated flight mode, it's fairly obvious if you use common sense that the crew compliment would probably not be as high as an Intrepid class, which is indeed the same deck height. And as for supporting the hardware, well honestly much of it is automated so it doesn't need a large crew to operate. When we were first introduced to the Prometheus class, it was able to operate with a crew UNDER TEN. This is also why the Intrepid class doesn't have a larger crew compliment even though it's similar in size in terms of it's internal volume and space to a Constitution.
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Old January 26 2009, 10:05 PM   #44
Deks
Rear Admiral
 
Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

On a related note ... I wonder what would be the maximum capacity of crewmen that Voyager can house.
If the Sovereign class which is 9 decks larger (11 as of Nemesis) is able to house about 800 (which might or may not be a standard crew compliment for that class), would it be a stretch to think an Intrepid would be able to house about a 500 people at max?

I mean ... if the Galaxy class is able to house about 10 000 people at it's fullest, then up to 500 for the Intrepid might be doable.

Granted, Voyager had issues housing 204 Klingons in season 7.
But that was primarily because they were utilizing much more of their resources in terms of replicators/power.

One has to question how the Klingons survived on their 4 generations old K'Tinga with that kind of resource drain.
Then again, being faced with advanced technology might have eased up whatever 'restrictions' they might have had on their ship (although I do find it incredibly impractical to destroy their own vessel).
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Old January 26 2009, 11:18 PM   #45
kv1at3485
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Re: Intrepid class VS a galaxy class, which was more powerful and adva

kent wrote: View Post
Granted we don't know much about the crew compliment, but with all the extra components needed to operate as a battleship and in seperated flight mode, it's fairly obvious if you use common sense that the crew compliment would probably not be as high as an Intrepid class, which is indeed the same deck height. And as for supporting the hardware, well honestly much of it is automated so it doesn't need a large crew to operate. When we were first introduced to the Prometheus class, it was able to operate with a crew UNDER TEN. This is also why the Intrepid class doesn't have a larger crew compliment even though it's similar in size in terms of it's internal volume and space to a Constitution.
Some notes. Number of decks!=size. Length!=size. A Prometheus is about 20% larger than an Intrepid. An Intrepid is about 2.5 to 3 times larger than a Constitution, depending on whether one is referring to the original or the refit. That there has been increased automation over the years from TOS to VOY is pretty obvious.

On the other hand, it probably doesn't do well to trumpet that we saw Prometheus flown by a handful. Any ship can be flown by a handful. The question is if that is enough when things start happening... like battle damage. Only a handful in Starfleet may have been trained to use Prometheus, but I wager that the ship's intended crew is a whole lot larger. Not to say that they couldn't build a ship that self-repaired in a big way all by itself without needing biological crew at their tech level, but let's face it: that's not the Star Trek way, for better or worse.

As a tid bit, if Prometheus was to have the same crew density as Defiant, that'd turn into a crew of like 500.

Deks wrote: View Post
On a related note ... I wonder what would be the maximum capacity of crewmen that Voyager can house.
If the Sovereign class which is 9 decks larger (11 as of Nemesis) is able to house about 800 (which might or may not be a standard crew compliment for that class), would it be a stretch to think an Intrepid would be able to house about a 500 people at max?

I mean ... if the Galaxy class is able to house about 10 000 people at it's fullest, then up to 500 for the Intrepid might be doable.
A Galaxy is 2 times larger than a Sovereign, which in turn is something like 3.5 to 4 times larger than an Intrepid. I would not be at all surprised if a Sovereign's normal crew complement is less than 550.
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