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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old January 22 2009, 10:19 AM   #31
GodThingFormerly
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

Gep Malakai wrote: View Post
The inertial dampeners reduce the mass of the propellant being expelled from the impulse engines...
Sez who? I always assumed they functioned by inducing a gravitational potential in the direction of spacecraft acceleration.

TGT
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Old January 22 2009, 10:28 AM   #32
Timo
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

Which would probably help with the fact that the supposed "nozzles" aren't anywhere near the obvious trust line...

But if we accept the TNG Tech Manual idea that the motion is the result of acceleration of propellant from the nozzles, and some sort of inertial manipulation thereof, then we might have a win-win scenario. Perhaps the momentum that the ship gets from this can be applied in whichever direction, by "field magic", but the momentum has to be created first, and this requires allowing the propellant to spray out across sufficiently many meters of free space in traditional rocket fashion? And this is why, out of all the possible arbitrary placements for the nozzles, they are placed where they also work as traditional rockets.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old January 22 2009, 10:37 AM   #33
GodThingFormerly
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

Timo wrote: View Post
Which would probably help with the fact that the supposed "nozzles" aren't anywhere near the obvious thrust line...
Since we don't know how the mass of the (probably crammed) warp nacelles of the NCC-1701 compare to that of her mostly hollow secondary hull and neck, I don't think you are in any position to arbitrarily declare that the impulse engine nozzles "aren't anywhere near the obvious thrust line..."

TGT
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Old January 22 2009, 10:49 AM   #34
Timo
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

Oh, that's only a problem for your particular creed. If one takes into account more of the movies, one can see that the placements in TMP and ST2 don't agree - either the Enterprise or the Reliant is mis-designed, and possibly both.

(I'd have much preferred if the Reliant had featured the sort of hull that preserved the thrust line, of course. But the TOS shuttle already rather violates the precedent of the mothership, unless the balance of component densities in the small craft is the complete reverse of that precedent.)

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Old January 22 2009, 05:13 PM   #35
Plecostomus
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

Double post, having some Open Office buffer issues here.
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Old January 22 2009, 05:16 PM   #36
Plecostomus
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

The God Thing wrote: View Post
(2) The rocket could have been a nuclear heated rocket - maybe siphoning some antimatter from the warp core for a boost.
But from where could have Cochrane sourced the astronomical (by today's standards) quantities of anti-matter he required for the project if such is the case? That shantytown where he was building the Phoenix didn't exactly strike me as a place which would be equipped with its own dedicated Fermilab-like particle collider.

TGT[/quote]

Trying to cram all the goodies of a "modern" warp drive into an ICBM will just make your head hurt. We are limited in what we can carry, and we are limited by the tech level of the era. I can accept that we will have inertia and gravity control in our lifetimes, and fusion as well. Antimatter production on a "massive" scale, not so much.

I highly doubt it carried that huge quantities of matter and antimatter or anything resembling a modern warp core at all. This thing was being built on a budget as a proof of concept, not a heavy-cruiser on a rocket.

The drive could have been powered by a small fusion reaction... after all they only hit warp 1 (or was it a wee bit higher?) and sustained it for a few moments. Heck a couple of friends and I postulated that maybe the drive ran off the scavenged nuclear warheads from the missiles. A combination fission ignited fusion bomb, detonated in a vac chamber and the resulting power (gamma rays/neutron stream) directed to the nacelles where it energized the crude coils.

The prototype for a design often looks nothing like its descendants... and I doubt the prototype warp-drive had all the features and abilities of a "modern" era warp-drive.

After that all important proof-of-concept flight when research hits high gear in the "big labs" things like focusing crystals, antimatter fuel for higher energy output and stuff like that will come into play. Exotic materials for coils comes later, with the "first" coils being made out of "mundane" exotic materials found in the earth's crust and around the solar system.

Zephram wasn't trying to build a full-fledged starship-on-a-rocket he was trying to prove his design to get more funding. All he needed was proof that he could reach lightspeed/go past it by a small fraction and the money would pour in... and he would retire to an island full of naked girls.

One more note. Nuclear fission "steam kettle" rockets actually worked in trials but there were issues with the material science of the cores, no material known can stand that level of thermal and neutron flux for long. Say the problem is solved by the time of the Pheonix. You have a small high-temp fission reactor "steam kettle" drive for the upper stage, a powerful "modern" chemical drive for the first stage.

So you got your small fission reactor (size of a 50 gallon drum) providing thrust, you have your small "exotic" reactor (size of two 50 gallon drums) providing juice to the nacelles, that leaves room for the inertial and gravity control stuff, computers, life support and fuel along with the servos to move the nacelles into position.

There you have it. One crude single-shot warp rocket according to my understanding of science, engineering and Treknology.
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Old January 22 2009, 06:30 PM   #37
Vance
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

The God Thing wrote: View Post
In what sense, exactly? Thermonuclear fusion rockets for space vehicle propulsion applications have been rigorously analyzed since the 1960s (Example 1, Example 2, Example 3).
They have, but they've largely been dismissed, largely due to efficiency issues. Sustaining a fusion reaction requires a lot of energy to do. The problem these articles often fail to point out is that nuclear power isn't exactly 'mass-shockwave-propellent' type. It's mostly just heat and miniscule mass.

The reaction doesn't just exploded like chemical thrust, or act like a mini ICBM going off. Even with ICBMs the bulk of the 'shockwave reaction' is caused by the sudden heat differential in the atmosphere.



The key line from all three articles is this: "[FONT=Times New Roman]Fusion reactions release an enormous amount of energy, which is why researchers are devising ways to harness that energy into a propulsion system.[/FONT]"

This means that the fusion reaction itself is not directly harnessable for this purpose. They haven't yet devised a practical way to convert the enormous energy from fusion reactions into thrust. After all, that's why there's WATER in nuclear power plants, it's not coolant, it's actually the power drive. The STEAM moves the turbines.

That's the problem with the interpretation that Roddenberry used in the writer's bible... "Nuclear Rocket" is a 1950's sci-fi 'future-tech' sounding thing, but it's utterly rediculous to real-world science.
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Old January 22 2009, 08:28 PM   #38
Plecostomus
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

Is there a side-view of the Phoenix done in schematic form somewhere? And one of the "ICBM" it was created from?

I can envision what I described above, I need the rough outlines of both so I can "cram" all the flight equipment inside.
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Old January 22 2009, 08:41 PM   #39
Vance
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

Plecostomus wrote: View Post
Is there a side-view of the Phoenix done in schematic form somewhere? And one of the "ICBM" it was created from?

I can envision what I described above, I need the rough outlines of both so I can "cram" all the flight equipment inside.
Well, the Phoenix used two types of Titan missiles, depending on which shot, and there's notable differences between the two, unfortunately. I'm not sure which the official version is supposed to be.
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Old January 22 2009, 09:29 PM   #40
JuanBolio
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

The God Thing wrote: View Post
Vance wrote: View Post
The problem with the 'newtonian physics' for the impulse drive, TGT, is that Roddenberry ALSO says that they're fusion engines, and fusion doesn't work that way.
In what sense, exactly? Thermonuclear fusion rockets for space vehicle propulsion applications have been rigorously analyzed since the 1960s (Example 1, Example 2, Example 3).

TGT
If you overlook the fact that they're well off the center-of-mass axis (probably), you still have the problem that fusion rockets would require more propellant than the Enterprise is capable of storing within its entire volume in order to have any appreciable deltaV.
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Old January 22 2009, 10:08 PM   #41
Plecostomus
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

Vance wrote: View Post
Plecostomus wrote: View Post
Is there a side-view of the Phoenix done in schematic form somewhere? And one of the "ICBM" it was created from?

I can envision what I described above, I need the rough outlines of both so I can "cram" all the flight equipment inside.
Well, the Phoenix used two types of Titan missiles, depending on which shot, and there's notable differences between the two, unfortunately. I'm not sure which the official version is supposed to be.

Geeze! How is a mad babbler supposed to technobabble without accurate shots to derive babble from?!

...I'll make an attempt later in Sketchup and Paint.
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Old January 22 2009, 10:09 PM   #42
Timo
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

Well, the Phoenix used two types of Titan missiles, depending on which shot, and there's notable differences between the two, unfortunately.
Well, not really, AFAIK. The full-scale "prop" was a real Titan II ICBM, and only its upper works were seen sitting in the museum silo they used for filming. The flying model was a totally fictional missile that some sources have dubbed Titan V (no relation to the real space launcher of that name whatsoever), and in terms of appearance this differed from the real ICBM only by having a single futuristic nozzle at the bottom, rather than the two engine bells of the real thing. So essentially the "prop" and the model were identical for all of their visible parts.

Of course, the real Titan II of 1950s design philosophy and 1960s-1970s execution was struggling to reach an orbital trajectory for its minuscule Gemini payload by using its two stages (it had been designed to loft a similar mass of nuclear warheads for a ballistic hop), while the lower stage of this fictional Titan V alone easily achieved escape velocity for a gigantic spacecraft the size of the entire upper stage, propelling it farther away from Earth than any real-world single rocket stage has ever done.

Here's a random shot of a Titan II (with nuclear rather than Gemini spacecraft payload), with her engines and the shape of the nose cone essentially the only things not in common with "Titan V":

http://www.siloworld.com/ICBM/Titan%20II.jpg

Timo Saloniemi
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Old January 22 2009, 10:53 PM   #43
Ronald Held
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

I thought his warp drive was powered by a fusion plant. He must have some form of IDF to get up to near lightspeed much less warp 1. I do not recall any gravity control in the cabin.
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Old January 22 2009, 11:21 PM   #44
JuanBolio
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

Ronald Held wrote: View Post
I thought his warp drive was powered by a fusion plant. He must have some form of IDF to get up to near lightspeed much less warp 1. I do not recall any gravity control in the cabin.
You don't need an IDF for warp travel - no inertia is imparted. His ship was in warp from the moment Cochrane flipped the engage switch while in orbit. You don't have to get up to near light speed with conventional engines and THEN flip on the warp drive, you know.
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Old January 23 2009, 10:34 PM   #45
Ronald Held
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Re: Launching the Phoenix

I will assume that in warp, one will not need an IDF. Do we know how fast the Phoenix was going when it went to Warp one?
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