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Voyager There's coffee in this forum!

View Poll Results: Kes V Seven of Nine
Kes 24 20.87%
7 of 9 67 58.26%
I liked them both equally 22 19.13%
I disliked them both equally 2 1.74%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 21 2009, 10:08 PM   #31
kimc
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
kimc wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
However, that meant that Kes was kept in the background in many episodes but when she was given a place under the spotlight, we could actually see that the character had a lot of quality. The same for Jennifer Lien's acting. When she was given the chance to shine, she took it.
I have to agree this is the case in episodes like "Warlord".
Now compare "Warlord" to "Infinate Regress".

Lien was so-so. If she put the emotional impact into "Warlord" like Ryan did with "Regress", there would be no doubt that Kes would have been the breakout character without them ever needing Seven.

All Seven was is a restart to the character Kes was meant to be.
Both actresses did a fine job in both episodes, imo.
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Old January 21 2009, 10:22 PM   #32
exodus
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

kimc wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
kimc wrote: View Post

I have to agree this is the case in episodes like "Warlord".
Now compare "Warlord" to "Infinate Regress".

Lien was so-so. If she put the emotional impact into "Warlord" like Ryan did with "Regress", there would be no doubt that Kes would have been the breakout character without them ever needing Seven.

All Seven was is a restart to the character Kes was meant to be.
Both actresses did a fine job in both episodes, imo.
Fair enough.

I'm sure it's no surprise that I'm siding with the producers on this one.
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Old January 21 2009, 11:12 PM   #33
Lynx
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
kimc wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
However, that meant that Kes was kept in the background in many episodes but when she was given a place under the spotlight, we could actually see that the character had a lot of quality. The same for Jennifer Lien's acting. When she was given the chance to shine, she took it.
I have to agree this is the case in episodes like "Warlord".
Now compare "Warlord" to "Infinate Regress".

Lien was so-so. If she put the emotional impact into "Warlord" like Ryan did with "Regress", there would be no doubt that Kes would have been the breakout character without them ever needing Seven.

All Seven was is a restart to the character Kes was meant to be.
Comparing Seven and Kes by referring to Seven as a "restart of what Kes was meant to be" is actually wrong because there is too much difference between the characters and their presumed roles in the stories.

If the writers had given Lien the same opportunities as Ryan was given, then the outcome for the character Kes would have been much different. As it was, Kes was underused but actually did shine when allowed to do so.
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Old January 21 2009, 11:30 PM   #34
teacock
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

NickRyder wrote: View Post
Kes was okay, felt too much like a Deanna Troi-esque character, .
Yes that was the comparison I made when I first watched VOY. Everything that annoyed me about Deanna annoyed me about Kes, only more so. Too sugarry, lacking any personality other than "Nice Person". (Though Deanna was excellent in her VOY eps, and much more interesting than a lot of TNG).

I'm just not interested in "Nice Person". I want character flaws. 7 was my all time favorite Trek character for a long time. I understand that if you didn't care for her having all those 7 dominated eps would have been pretty annoying--for me they were just an embarrassment of riches.

7 was also used for a lot of VOY humour, her arrogance versus the doctor's pomposity etc.. and then there was her touching relationship with Janeway which revealed a lot about Janeway's character..
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Old January 22 2009, 02:13 PM   #35
Lashmore
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

In terms of sexuality...

Kes by far, she didn't need a Fake catsuit which had padding and a model made for her butt and breasts to look better than they actually were (self esteem issues seven, self esteem)

But Kes, naturally beautiful, nymph like in movement and in personality. A much more real character to connect with.
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Old January 22 2009, 03:46 PM   #36
VulcanGuy
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Lashmore wrote: View Post
In terms of sexuality...

Kes by far, she didn't need a Fake catsuit which had padding and a model made for her butt and breasts to look better than they actually were (self esteem issues seven, self esteem)

But Kes, naturally beautiful, nymph like in movement and in personality. A much more real character to connect with.
Here we go, lulz. Lieutenant Lashmore and his hate of the catsuit makes an appearance in another thread.
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Old January 22 2009, 06:25 PM   #37
exodus
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
kimc wrote: View Post

I have to agree this is the case in episodes like "Warlord".
Now compare "Warlord" to "Infinate Regress".

Lien was so-so. If she put the emotional impact into "Warlord" like Ryan did with "Regress", there would be no doubt that Kes would have been the breakout character without them ever needing Seven.

All Seven was is a restart to the character Kes was meant to be.
Comparing Seven and Kes by referring to Seven as a "restart of what Kes was meant to be" is actually wrong because there is too much difference between the characters and their presumed roles in the stories.
They are the same in the aspect that we would be watching them grow up over the course of the series. Their origin and frame of mind is different but their theme remains the same.

You can disagree but an opinion or point of view can't be deemed wrong, please keep that in mind in the future.
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Old January 22 2009, 07:37 PM   #38
kimc
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

VulcanGuy wrote: View Post
Here we go, lulz. Lieutenant Lashmore and his hate of the catsuit makes an appearance in another thread.
So why do we care about that?

Post whatever opinions you want but try not to make it personal. It's just a message board after all.
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Old January 22 2009, 09:09 PM   #39
Lynx
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Now compare "Warlord" to "Infinate Regress".

Lien was so-so. If she put the emotional impact into "Warlord" like Ryan did with "Regress", there would be no doubt that Kes would have been the breakout character without them ever needing Seven.

All Seven was is a restart to the character Kes was meant to be.
Comparing Seven and Kes by referring to Seven as a "restart of what Kes was meant to be" is actually wrong because there is too much difference between the characters and their presumed roles in the stories.
They are the same in the aspect that we would be watching them grow up over the course of the series. Their origin and frame of mind is different but their theme remains the same.

You can disagree but an opinion or point of view can't be deemed wrong, please keep that in mind in the future.
There are more differences than similarities between the characters.

When it comes to Kes, we might call her development "growing up" since she was rather young when she came to Voyager. But in her case it's more about learning and exploring since Kes after all was the equivalent to a human 18-25 years old and therefore could be regarded as a grown-up. Besides that, she had had a rich and happy childhood.

When it comes to Seven, it's another story. She was abducted by the Borg as a young child and assimilated. In her case, it was more about someone with a ruined childhod who was trying to rebuild her life again.

The characters also had very different personalities. Therefore it would have been interesting to have both of them on the ship regarding their relationship to Janeway, The Doctor and the other crew members.
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Old January 22 2009, 09:36 PM   #40
Jean-Luc Picard
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

For me, it has to be Seven of Nine; her story was developed extremely well, and she added some spice and irregularity to the main cast. She strengthened the connections between the characters, because her interactions with everyone were so strong. Her relationships with each of her fellow crewmembers was unique and distinct, with a different feel to any other that had been on the show. She even made me like Harry Kim at certain points.

However, I also liked Kes, but I don't think she was treated fairly. She was never really given the chance to develop or grow as Seven did, and her potential was left unexplored. When she was given a chance to shine, it always looked promising (I love "Cold Fire"), but we never got to see anything truly awesome realised.
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Old January 22 2009, 09:36 PM   #41
Ezri II
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

I like Kes

Her character was not that great and her species was not the great also.

Thought it was a bad idea to make her species live such short lives. Just me, it just felt like they were not going to keep Kes and Neelix around the full seven years. And yes both never got to Earth.

In fairness, I just like to look at Kes more then Seven.
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Old January 22 2009, 09:54 PM   #42
Lynx
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

^^
I never had that feeling. I was absolutely sure that both of them would be on the ship when they arived to Earth (and honestly, they should have been there too).

Neelix stated many times that he would stick with Janeway and the others. Kes was as eager to get to Earth with them too, besides that she wanted to learn and explore. And after "Cold Fire" I was absolutely sure that they would find a way to prolong her lifespan.

The short lifespan was a big mistake, the worst flaw in the character. To be honest, a species with such a short lifespan could never develope into more than primates. Not to mention the error with the "one-child" syndrome. Sometimes I wonder if the writers really did know what they were doing.

Anyway, those errors could have been corrected.
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Old January 22 2009, 09:56 PM   #43
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Add a vote to Kes, she was probably one of the most unique characters ever on Star Trek, she had an innocence that was wonderfully juxtaposed with her dark side. Jennifer Lien played her with a nice reserved demeanour. Seven, was great as well and its interesting to think how the series would have played out had Kes had stayed, whilst as the producers originally planned, Kim had left. The interactions between Kes and Seven would have been great to watch.
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Old January 22 2009, 10:11 PM   #44
Ezri II
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Lynx wrote: View Post
^^
I never had that feeling. I was absolutely sure that both of them would be on the ship when they arived to Earth (and honestly, they should have been there too).

Neelix stated many times that he would stick with Janeway and the others. Kes was as eager to get to Earth with them too, besides that she wanted to learn and explore. And after "Cold Fire" I was absolutely sure that they would find a way to prolong her lifespan.

The short lifespan was a big mistake, the worst flaw in the character. To be honest, a species with such a short lifespan could never develope into more than primates. Not to mention the error with the "one-child" syndrome. Sometimes I wonder if the writers really did know what they were doing.

Anyway, those errors could have been corrected.
After the 1st season I had a feeling that Kes was not going to end up on Earth. There was way to many flaws with her character. In fairness, all the characters had major flaws the 1st season.

Everyone can have a second chance as they can grow out of their 1st season. Kes, darn it is hard to really move from that problem she has a short life and was already 2 years old with six more to go.

In fairness they never killed her off but really they never settled about that. Last as I recall she was in a ship with a return back to her home. Still I think that was in seson five. That has a problem as she would be well 12 years old and sorry to say she would be older then she should be.
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Old January 22 2009, 10:43 PM   #45
exodus
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Re: Kes V Seven of Nine

Lynx wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post

Comparing Seven and Kes by referring to Seven as a "restart of what Kes was meant to be" is actually wrong because there is too much difference between the characters and their presumed roles in the stories.
They are the same in the aspect that we would be watching them grow up over the course of the series. Their origin and frame of mind is different but their theme remains the same.

You can disagree but an opinion or point of view can't be deemed wrong, please keep that in mind in the future.
There are more differences than similarities between the characters.

When it comes to Kes, we might call her development "growing up" since she was rather young when she came to Voyager. But in her case it's more about learning and exploring since Kes after all was the equivalent to a human 18-25 years old and therefore could be regarded as a grown-up. Besides that, she had had a rich and happy childhood.

When it comes to Seven, it's another story. She was abducted by the Borg as a young child and assimilated. In her case, it was more about someone with a ruined childhod who was trying to rebuild her life again.

The characters also had very different personalities. Therefore it would have been interesting to have both of them on the ship regarding their relationship to Janeway, The Doctor and the other crew members.
Kes' age mentally was hard to figure out, one mintue she was super mature and the next she was very nieve. It's one of the things that puts me off to the character. She gets excited over seeing a Nebula but acts like she's been onboard Voyager before. Neelix was more excited about being on the ship & it's new technology then she did.

Besides, it wasn't that Kes wanted to go to Earth, she just wanted to see what she never had before. She left everybody she knew on Ocampa for strangers. She considered leaving Voyager twice due to the offer of seeing something new. Remember her statement in "CareTaker": I'm too curious and it sometimes gets me into trouble." Regardless of how you feel or the point behind "The Gift", it's why she left then too, she wanted to explore what was happening too her because it was a new experance.
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