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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade Lost Souls
Excellent 130 72.22%
Above Average 35 19.44%
Average 12 6.67%
Below Average 1 0.56%
Poor 2 1.11%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 16 2009, 11:29 PM   #496
Christopher
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

^^Yeah, but then they brought it back, so that doesn't count.

However, there have been books in which entire other universes or parallel timelines were extinguished permanently. Heck, at the beginning of Q&A, Keith describes the wholesale annihilation of several universes. That's pretty hard to beat.
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Old January 17 2009, 10:53 AM   #497
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
^^Yeah, but then they brought it back, so that doesn't count.

However, there have been books in which entire other universes or parallel timelines were extinguished permanently. Heck, at the beginning of Q&A, Keith describes the wholesale annihilation of several universes. That's pretty hard to beat.
you are all little too bloodthirsty, aren't you?
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Old January 17 2009, 01:01 PM   #498
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

finished it this AM.

somehow, i knew there would be a DEM ending, but it was not as disappointing or crap as i had feared (In Mack I Should Trust), I loved what happened with Seven.

i liked that some of the planets getting mentioned were TOS planets, not just TNG+ ones like Ajilon or what have you.

9/10
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Old January 17 2009, 11:32 PM   #499
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Speaking of death tolls, it seemed ironic that in the "A Time to" series, despite the first book being called "A time to kill", most of the killing happens in "A time to heal"
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Old January 20 2009, 01:23 PM   #500
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

OK, I wanted to know more about Destiny Book 3, and began to read the posts, but there were 25 pages of them to go through and you guys lost me when you went off on a fruit tangent...

Go ahead and give me more spoilers...I know the Borg were poised to pretty much obliterate every Federation and allied world at the end of Book 2 (including the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians?), and though I haven't read Book 1 or 2 yet (still struggling through Before Dishonor then must read Greater Than The Sum), I would still like to know how the Borg were defeated/averted. Talk around the Trek Lit forum indicates the Borg are pretty much taken out of the equation for all time, or so it seems, so something of great importance must have occured. And what is this about Borg hunger? What, did Picard and team give them some yummies to make them go away? Sonja Gomez Captain of the daVinci? Where's Gold? Do the other species of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants blame humanity for the Borg? Why? What went on in this book, or the trilogy, to cause this? Go ahead and tell me what's gone on, because at this rate it will be several months until I get to finish this trilogy...by which time, we'll be talking about all the post-Destiny books!

Or are you guys going to make me go through 25 pages of posts to find out what's what?
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Old January 20 2009, 01:25 PM   #501
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

SicOne wrote: View Post
OK, I wanted to know more about Destiny Book 3, and began to read the posts, but there were 25 pages of them to go through and you guys lost me when you went off on a fruit tangent...

Go ahead and give me more spoilers...I know the Borg were poised to pretty much obliterate every Federation and allied world at the end of Book 2 (including the Klingons, Romulans, and Cardassians?), and though I haven't read Book 1 or 2 yet (still struggling through Before Dishonor then must read Greater Than The Sum), I would still like to know how the Borg were defeated/averted. Talk around the Trek Lit forum indicates the Borg are pretty much taken out of the equation for all time, or so it seems, so something of great importance must have occured. And what is this about Borg hunger? What, did Picard and team give them some yummies to make them go away? Sonja Gomez Captain of the daVinci? Where's Gold? Do the other species of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants blame humanity for the Borg? Why? What went on in this book, or the trilogy, to cause this? Go ahead and tell me what's gone on, because at this rate it will be several months until I get to finish this trilogy...by which time, we'll be talking about all the post-Destiny books!

Or are you guys going to make me go through 25 pages of posts to find out what's what?
They are Assimilated and in turn freed
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Old January 21 2009, 09:00 AM   #502
Thrawn
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

David Mack: I salute you. This is an incredible achievement, and a phenomenal trilogy. Since much of the general praise has been said, here are a few specific observations/questions:

1) To me, this is primarily Hernandez's trilogy, and I must give you a particular kudos on her emotional journey. I think her sections of book 2 might be my favorite material in the entire series, nearly bringing me to tears a couple of times. I'm wondering about the relationship between Inyx and her, though - most of the series felt intricately plotted and detailed, like clockwork (in a good way! Very fitting with the title "Destiny") but the moment where he asked her to live because he was being selfish, and she told him it made him more human, seemed spontaneous and entirely joyful. Was that outlined, or did that relationship grow more as you wrote it? Either way; genius, and I dearly hope we see the return of that pair. One of my favorite relationships in Trek history.

2) I don't know why, but I adore Lonnoc Kedair. Damn nifty to bring the Takarans back, and turn that into such a compelling character (she felt it her calling to defend them, etc) and breakdown in book 3. I'm really hoping we get to see the Aventine in a more central role in a future series, almost entirely just for her. Don't get me wrong, the rest of the Aventine crew was outstanding, but something about Kedair really grabbed me.

3) My only real complaint with the whole series is that our captains have very little agency in the climax; Ezri decides to get Hernandez on the scout ship, but aside from that one action, there's very little that Ezri, Riker, or Picard actually do in the third book. Which makes some sense with Picard, I suppose, though I would've liked to see him realizing that Geordi was right happen on-screen, so to speak, but Riker really seemed to just wander around until Troi showed up. Did you see some significance to that - Destiny, it's out of our hands, something like that - that I missed, or did you just feel most of the arcs for the Titan crew that you were interested in happened in earlier books/with the Caeliar?

4) Finally, I'm not a writer and I don't think I can specifically explain what I mean, but somewhere between A Time To Kill/Heal (which I read just a couple books before starting Destiny) and Destiny, your style has matured noticeably for the better. The prose seemed mostly invisible in the Kill/Heal pair, moving the action along beautifully but not really drawing attention to itself, but in this book there were several passages I came across that I had to re-read just to savor the language (particularly in the 5 planet attack sequence and, of course, the very end). Just wanted to say I noticed, and I'm very impressed.

5) And, finally, thank you for ending on such a stirring statement of fundamental optimism. I used to read a lot more sci-fi than I do now, but lately most of what I've found has seemed either resigned or fearful of the future. Such a powerfully hopeful end to such a terrifying villain was something I didn't expect, and deeply appreciate.

I really didn't think you could top Reap The Whirlwind but... damn.
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Old January 21 2009, 09:27 PM   #503
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Thrawn wrote: View Post
David Mack: I salute you. This is an incredible achievement, and a phenomenal trilogy.
Thanks, very kind of you to say.

Since much of the general praise has been said, here are a few specific observations/questions:

1) To me, this is primarily Hernandez's trilogy, and I must give you a particular kudos on her emotional journey. I think her sections of book 2 might be my favorite material in the entire series, nearly bringing me to tears a couple of times. I'm wondering about the relationship between Inyx and her, though - most of the series felt intricately plotted and detailed, like clockwork (in a good way! Very fitting with the title "Destiny") but the moment where he asked her to live because he was being selfish, and she told him it made him more human, seemed spontaneous and entirely joyful. Was that outlined, or did that relationship grow more as you wrote it?
Good question. You are correct — in a very real sense, the trilogy is about Hernandez's journey more than it's about the other characters' roles. That was an intentional bit of misdirection on my part.

As for her friendship with Inyx, the broad strokes of it were planned in advance, but that specific interaction was one that occurred to me as I was writing the scene. The texture of their relationship (and also of Inyx's connection with Sedín) developed organically during the writing process.

2) I don't know why, but I adore Lonnoc Kedair. Damn nifty to bring the Takarans back, and turn that into such a compelling character (she felt it her calling to defend them, etc) and breakdown in book 3. I'm really hoping we get to see the Aventine in a more central role in a future series.
I enjoyed creating that character, and not just because I cast the role with Lena Headey while I was writing. As for seeing more of Kedair and the Aventine crew, be sure to pick up Keith DeCandido's new book, A Singular Destiny.

3) My only real complaint with the whole series is that our captains have very little agency in the climax; (…snip…) Did you see some significance to that - Destiny, it's out of our hands, something like that - that I missed…?
No, you're right about that. It is one of the principal flaws of the entire trilogy, and I was aware of it even at the outline stage.

Much as I sought more directly active roles for the commanding officers, the story demanded something else from me and from them. I've heard some good suggestions about how the Dax storyline might have been improved, and I wish I'd thought of them.

As for Riker's and Picard's stories, I eventually concluded that part of what the trilogy is "about" is learning to accept that we are sometimes at the mercy of events and forces beyond ourselves. To the extent that it works, I take the credit; to the extent that it fails, I accept the blame.

4) Finally, I'm not a writer and I don't think I can specifically explain what I mean, but somewhere between A Time To Kill/Heal (which I read just a couple books before starting Destiny) and Destiny, your style has matured noticeably for the better. The prose seemed mostly invisible in the Kill/Heal pair, moving the action along beautifully but not really drawing attention to itself, but in this book there were several passages I came across that I had to re-read just to savor the language (particularly in the 5 planet attack sequence and, of course, the very end). Just wanted to say I noticed, and I'm very impressed.
Gracias, most appreciated. I hope you'll check out my first original novel, The Calling, when it comes out in July. I just turned in the copy-edited manuscript to my editor today, and I think it has shaped up nicely on many levels.

5) And, finally, thank you for ending on such a stirring statement of fundamental optimism. I used to read a lot more sci-fi than I do now, but lately most of what I've found has seemed either resigned or fearful of the future. Such a powerfully hopeful end to such a terrifying villain was something I didn't expect, and deeply appreciate.
That was the idea that I felt made the trilogy worth doing: The notion that the key to victory and survival for the Federation lay not in its ability to work violence, but in the nobility of its ideals; and that compassion and healing are more powerful engines for positive change than brute force.

I really didn't think you could top Reap The Whirlwind but... damn.
Well, it's hardly a fair fight, is it? I mean, three books against one… … but I'm grateful for your generous praise.
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Old January 21 2009, 09:50 PM   #504
Thrawn
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

David Mack wrote: View Post
No, you're right about that. It is one of the principal flaws of the entire trilogy, and I was aware of it even at the outline stage.

Much as I sought more directly active roles for the commanding officers, the story demanded something else from me and from them. I've heard some good suggestions about how the Dax storyline might have been improved, and I wish I'd thought of them.

As for Riker's and Picard's stories, I eventually concluded that part of what the trilogy is "about" is learning to accept that we are sometimes at the mercy of events and forces beyond ourselves. To the extent that it works, I take the credit; to the extent that it fails, I accept the blame.
I think it works pretty well for Picard, though I think making that point more explicit might've helped (Picard prepping the thalaron weapon anyway, attempting to seize the moment, then giving up at the last minute to the uncertain possibilities of the more optimistic Caeliar option), but I don't see how Riker really got a character arc out of it. Aside from that vague bit about his faith in Troi always being richly rewarded, I just didn't feel like there was that much there.

It actually seemed like that happened a lot, that Titan's arcs in general were all wrapping up character arcs from prior Titan adventures, and that the crew wasn't as important to or invested in the rest of the story as the other two crews. I liked most of the character arcs, but they were pretty divorced from the rest of the story.

But like I said, that's one of a very few complaints with the trilogy, and with the characters themselves written so well and the trilogy overall so good, it's certainly forgivable.

Gracias, most appreciated. I hope you'll check out my first original novel, The Calling, when it comes out in July. I just turned in the copy-edited manuscript to my editor today, and I think it has shaped up nicely on many levels.
How Judeo-Christian is the mythology? I'm not at all religious, and at first glance the gimmick seems kinda off-putting; is it very much associated with religious notions, or would you classify it as a more Whedon-like universe that uses the same imagery, but as more of a broad-spectrum fantasy?

Well, it's hardly a fair fight, is it? I mean, three books against one… … but I'm grateful for your generous praise.
Yeah, but it was a really good one...
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Old January 21 2009, 10:07 PM   #505
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

I think one of the many refreshing plot points (intentional or not) in the Destiny trilogy was that our heroes did not save the day by their lonesome selves.

Sure, everyone had a part to play (including reaching personal insights, i.e. Picard), but it truly was a story about the Trek universe with all the ships, cultures and supporting characters dealing with the Borg threat...

Maybe it's just me, but I found the entire approach and execution to be top notch
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Old January 21 2009, 10:34 PM   #506
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

RonG wrote: View Post
I think one of the many refreshing plot points (intentional or not) in the Destiny trilogy was that our heroes did not save the day by their lonesome selves.

Sure, everyone had a part to play (including reaching personal insights, i.e. Picard), but it truly was a story about the Trek universe with all the ships, cultures and supporting characters dealing with the Borg threat...

Maybe it's just me, but I found the entire approach and execution to be top notch
Huh. I actually hadn't thought of it quite that way before.

Instead of a crossover trilogy about three captains, if I just think about it as a story about the whole Star Trek universe with varying emphases on certain important players, it actually makes a lot of sense. Like, lots of people have mentioned that this is Trek's Lord Of The Rings, and that seemed like a misnomer to me as a lot of our characters experienced a lot, but didn't really DO much. But this isn't a heroic quest, it's just a Big Damn Event that happens, and everyone gets caught up in it.

May sound like kinda a dumb realization, but actually that helps me appreciate it further. Context really is important I guess...
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Old January 22 2009, 12:05 AM   #507
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Thrawn wrote: View Post
Instead of a crossover trilogy about three captains, if I just think about it as a story about the whole Star Trek universe with varying emphases on certain important players, it actually makes a lot of sense.
That was really how I viewed it from the time that I read the first book - I mean if it were just a trio of Captains involved in the crossover, then the three of them would have been separated from their crews. And with the inclusion of various other POVs - the Bacco administration, Admiral Paris, the doomed ship at Khitomer I can't remember right now, and various others as the worlds are devastated - it really, to me, anyway, comes across not as a tale about these captains or this or that ship but the entire Star Trek universe, or at least the entire Federation.
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Old January 22 2009, 12:19 AM   #508
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
Thrawn wrote: View Post
Instead of a crossover trilogy about three captains, if I just think about it as a story about the whole Star Trek universe with varying emphases on certain important players, it actually makes a lot of sense.
That was really how I viewed it from the time that I read the first book - I mean if it were just a trio of Captains involved in the crossover, then the three of them would have been separated from their crews. And with the inclusion of various other POVs - the Bacco administration, Admiral Paris, the doomed ship at Khitomer I can't remember right now, and various others as the worlds are devastated - it really, to me, anyway, comes across not as a tale about these captains or this or that ship but the entire Star Trek universe, or at least the entire Federation.
Now I wanna go back and re-read the whole thing again, thinking about it this way
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Old January 22 2009, 12:41 AM   #509
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Thrawn wrote: View Post
DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
Thrawn wrote: View Post
Instead of a crossover trilogy about three captains, if I just think about it as a story about the whole Star Trek universe with varying emphases on certain important players, it actually makes a lot of sense.
That was really how I viewed it from the time that I read the first book - I mean if it were just a trio of Captains involved in the crossover, then the three of them would have been separated from their crews. And with the inclusion of various other POVs - the Bacco administration, Admiral Paris, the doomed ship at Khitomer I can't remember right now, and various others as the worlds are devastated - it really, to me, anyway, comes across not as a tale about these captains or this or that ship but the entire Star Trek universe, or at least the entire Federation.
Now I wanna go back and re-read the whole thing again, thinking about it this way
This is a bad thing?
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Old January 22 2009, 05:53 AM   #510
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Thrawn wrote: View Post
Gracias, most appreciated. I hope you'll check out my first original novel, The Calling, when it comes out in July. I just turned in the copy-edited manuscript to my editor today, and I think it has shaped up nicely on many levels.
How Judeo-Christian is the mythology? I'm not at all religious, and at first glance the gimmick seems kinda off-putting; is it very much associated with religious notions, or would you classify it as a more Whedon-like universe that uses the same imagery, but as more of a broad-spectrum fantasy?
The religious elements are deliberately minimized; it's meant to be more of a Stephen King–style approach to the story, or perhaps like a Dean Koontz type of supernatural thriller. This is not the Left Behind series or a Jack Chick gospel tract.
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