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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade "Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night"
Excellent 105 69.08%
Above Average 35 23.03%
Average 8 5.26%
Below Average 2 1.32%
Poor 2 1.32%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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Old January 17 2009, 05:12 AM   #391
Stevil2001
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

Kirr wrote: View Post
Now fast forward a few years to when she essentially feels like her parents were divorced. Or her siblings barely know their mother (heck, even at 5-years-old the daughter barely knows her) - what kind of a presence will Miranda be in their lives? These aren't just rhetorical questions - they're questions the character should be asking herself.
Who's to say that these questions won't be addressed as the series goes forward? It strikes me that the character of Miranda was introduced with probably these very issues in mind.
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Old January 17 2009, 05:42 AM   #392
JD
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

Kirr wrote: View Post
Claudia wrote: View Post
And even if her husband had agreed to follow Kadohata aboard ENT, one could argue that having young children on a ship in times of war (and the Borg invasion(s) count as such) is questionable at best, even if the ships themselves may be designed for this... and you can't always evacuate them before an attack. I know I'd be exceedingly distracted if any children of mine were in our quarters (or whereever on the ship) and I couldn't be with them... I think even more so than if they weren't around on the ship at all.

Also, I didn't get the impression that the Ent-E was a family-ship like the D was, it's much smaller after all... Would it even have been possible for her family to stay on Enterprise, or would have Kadohata had to transfer to another ship in order to have her family with her?
See, this argument doesn't really work for me when the Captain and his wife and future child will all be remaining with the Enterprise I'm sure. And no one is 'safe' anywhere - it's all relative. Yes, staying home is safer than being on a starship. But what if the base where her family live is attacked while she's away, relatively safer in her starship with it's defenses against the Borg.

Ultimately, I feel I've completely derailed this topic, which was not my intention. I gave my reasons for not liking Miranda, I already knew the reasons the authors feel she's made the 'right' choice, as it's clear from the portrayal, and the answers have only reinforced that. I think there were other choices here, and so I find I've got a problem with her. Doesn't stop me from reading, or enjoying, the stories you've presented.

And as I said at the beginning, I loved Destiny book 1 and look forward to talking about book 2.
Ok, just one comment here, when you use Picards-Crushers you have to remember that they are both officers who have been serving on the ship together, and I have a feeling that if it were the same with Miranda and Vicenzo (I think that's how you spell his name, the books are in the other room and I don't feeling like going all the way in their to look) were both in Starfleet there's a good chance he'd be on the ship too.
Oh, and given what's been happening recently I just want to say that it's nice to see someone who can actually enjoy the books even though he doesn't like one of the decisions made in them.
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Old January 17 2009, 07:14 AM   #393
William Leisner
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
Kirr wrote: View Post
Now fast forward a few years to when she essentially feels like her parents were divorced. Or her siblings barely know their mother (heck, even at 5-years-old the daughter barely knows her) - what kind of a presence will Miranda be in their lives? These aren't just rhetorical questions - they're questions the character should be asking herself.
Who's to say that these questions won't be addressed as the series goes forward? It strikes me that the character of Miranda was introduced with probably these very issues in mind.
I think you give the authors far too much credit...
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Old January 17 2009, 07:42 AM   #394
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

I can kind of see where Kirr is coming from. The issue is somewhat of a moral issue and one of personal character. Miranda's decision to abandon her family to pursue her career speaks little as to her moral character. It says that she is willing to have babies but not take up the appropriate responsibility in regards to them. She could have resigned her commission but she puts career above family and that is what I think Kirr was saying.

I too think it's a bad choice and even if it was a male character I would say it's a bad choice. Having children is something that requires personal sacrifice. You can't just choose when you're going to be there for them and when you are not. I don't see the comparison to the military as valid either because military are not deployed for years. Months yes but a Starfleet vessel could be years out and yet she chose this. I personally cannot understand any mother who would do such a thing to their child. It seems cruel and unusual to both the husband left behind and the children he now has to raise alone. She might as well not even be married to him. With all the statistics there are that show children being raised in single parent households contribute to more crimes than any other demographic I cannot see how a Star Trek author can in all good conscience support such a position and say it's OK.

Kevin
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Old January 17 2009, 08:08 AM   #395
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

Ktrek wrote: View Post
I don't see the comparison to the military as valid either because military are not deployed for years.
And what planet do you live on?

Of course military personnel can be stationed away from their home base for years at a time. Even in peacetime, US soldiers could do a year in Germany, followed by a year in Korea, followed by a year someplace else. Not to mention the fact that peace can turn to war in an instant, and regardless of the length of deployment, the military parent might never come home.
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Old January 17 2009, 05:08 PM   #396
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

Ktrek wrote: View Post
I can kind of see where Kirr is coming from. The issue is somewhat of a moral issue and one of personal character. Miranda's decision to abandon her family to pursue her career speaks little as to her moral character. It says that she is willing to have babies but not take up the appropriate responsibility in regards to them. She could have resigned her commission but she puts career above family and that is what I think Kirr was saying.
That's ridiculous. She didn't "abandon" her family. She communicates with them over subspace every chance she gets. She visits home every chance she gets. She took quite a few months off duty for maternity leave -- including not only the pregnancy itself, but time thereafter to bond with her new babies. She and her husband mutually agreed that they were okay with this arrangement, and they both work as hard as they can to make it work for themselves and for their kids. That's anything but abandonment.

I don't see the comparison to the military as valid either because military are not deployed for years.
As Bill pointed out, that is categorically untrue.

I personally cannot understand any mother who would do such a thing to their child. It seems cruel and unusual to both the husband left behind and the children he now has to raise alone.
Once again: this was Vicenzo's idea as much as hers. Miranda loves her kids and would happily have them and her husband aboard the Enterprise with her, but Vicenzo refuses to leave his university work. Why isn't he just as much to blame for this separation? Why are you pinning it all on Miranda when it was a mutual decision?

She might as well not even be married to him. With all the statistics there are that show children being raised in single parent households contribute to more crimes than any other demographic I cannot see how a Star Trek author can in all good conscience support such a position and say it's OK.
Oh, that is ridiculous. For your information, I lived in a single-parent household from the age of seven onward, and I've never committed any infraction more serious than jaywalking. Statistics can be twisted to support any line of bull, and you're twisting this one way past the breaking point. The argument you're making here is ludicrous -- especially when applied to the 24th-century Federation where crime is virtually nonexistent.

If there is any correlation between single parenting and crime, it's that the children of single parents are often neglected because society forces those parents to work extra-hard to support their family, leaving them no time for their children. With no need for money in the 24th century, Vicenzo can spend plenty of time with his children. You're also forgetting that this isn't a "single-parent household." Miranda talks to her kids over subspace on a daily basis. She's involved with their lives very actively, even if she's not physically there. These kids are not starved for attention, and they're not going to grow up to be juvenile delinquents in a society that has a crime rate bordering on zero.
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Old January 17 2009, 06:19 PM   #397
JD
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

Ktrek wrote: View Post
With all the statistics there are that show children being raised in single parent households contribute to more crimes than any other demographic I cannot see how a Star Trek author can in all good conscience support such a position and say it's OK.

Kevin
Ok, as a child of a (mostly) single-parent household, I find that statement a little insulting. I have never commited and crime, and I have a sister who has also never commited a crime (as far as I know) and who is now working as a doctor. So I don't see exactly what bad thing you think the authors are supporting.
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Old January 17 2009, 06:22 PM   #398
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

JD wrote: View Post
Ktrek wrote: View Post
With all the statistics there are that show children being raised in single parent households contribute to more crimes than any other demographic I cannot see how a Star Trek author can in all good conscience support such a position and say it's OK.

Kevin
Ok, as a child of a (mostly) single-parent household, I find that statement a little insulting. I have never commited and crime, and I have a sister who has also never commited a crime (as far as I know) and who is now working as a doctor. So I don't see exactly what bad thing you think the authors are supporting.
Ditto.

Speaking as someone who went from being raised in a poor, single-parent household in a low-income, high-crime neighborhood to do well in school and intern in the Ohio State Senate and United States Senate, and who has never been involved in crime or drugs or anything of the sort:

Thanks for insulting my upbringing and my mother's parenting skills, Ktrek! Just love it when people who don't know me stand in judgment of my family!
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Old January 17 2009, 07:12 PM   #399
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

I can see both sides of the argument, but in the end, it comes down to personal opinion and choice, both within the story and without. For me, it's just a facet of Kadohata's character, and helps to flesh her out as a realistic crew member; it's easy to lose human situations in amongst the phasers and starships, so I think KRAD did a good job in applying a different dynamic. If Kadohata is going to be criticised for that, however, then her husband Vicenzo must also come under scrutiny. He chose to remain with his career too, and his is arguably far less important than his wife's.

Still, no matter how humanizing Kadohata's situation is, I don't think it can be translated as literally into the real world as it has been in this thread. Statistical probabilities on single-parent families don't fit into an advanced future society, and they shouldn't; I'm all for reflection of issues in entertainment and fiction, but anything so blatant would just be heavy-handed and rob it of its sense of escapism. When it comes down to it, Kadohata is a subtle representation of reality and nothing more.

Back to the book: Hernandez and her team's arrival at Erigol has been really interesting so far, and Inyx is intriguing. The Enterprise storyline has really heated up, with the attack on Korvat and Paris' death; I also thought that the Ranger's kamikaze strike was really inventive and a blast to read. I'm liking the screentime that Pazlar is getting too, as well as Tuvok. The scene with Troi learning the truth behind her miscarriages was a nice throwback to "The Child".
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Old January 18 2009, 05:51 PM   #400
Kirr
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

[SIZE=2]
William Leisner wrote: View Post
I think you give the authors far too much credit...
I think this cuts right to the heart of the matter, so I’m going to add my last thoughts based on this. I’ve written what I have to explain the reasons I feel the way I do – and perhaps that was the wrong track to take. Let me simply things.

If the intention was to create an unsympathetic character - congratulations, you’ve succeeded. Ignor me and move on.

If the intention was collectively to create a sympathetic character in Miranda, so far, for me personally, it has been a failure. Doesn’t mean the writing’s been poor, doesn’t mean I have to agree with her choice, doesn’t mean you have to change her decision or that I may ever like her. I do not find her sympathetic. An interesting character, whom I don’t really like.

And if the intention is to convince me on a message board of why I’m wrong, in gamer lingo, epic fail, you’ve completely missed the point.

I know its in vogue to say ‘it’s just one idiot on the internet’ – and again, if you feel you’ve done everything in your power to make Miranda a sympathetic character and the fault lies with me – great, your job here is done. But it seems to me where there’s one, there might be more people reading her character this way.

What I have tried to do is give some examples of ways in which the authors might find ways to improve this character. Frankly, I don’t think these suggestions would hurt even if you are a reader who is completely sold on the idea of Miranda. I’m talking about seeing her and her husband talk about this decision some more. I don’t really feel like I’ve seen him say he wouldn’t join her – but even if I’m forgetting that scene from a particular novel, if these novels are meant to stand alone, there’s no harm in revisiting these things in later novels (besides, in real life, these kinds of discussions come up over and over again, with hurt feelings, and unresolved issues). Would it hurt to have her husband ask the same questions I have (‘what’s your goal Miranda?’). Perhaps he’s totally on-board with this decision, but the children aren’t.

You could argue, ‘maybe these things are going on behind the scenes’ – well, that doesn’t really help. I’m not ‘seeing’ those discussions, so to me, everyone is a-ok with the situation. And maybe they all are, and if so, it’s unrealistic to me, but whatever.

I’ll give you another example of how this discussion could be brought up in terms of a novel (and actually create character growth for another character who could use it) – it might be interesting to have a character on the Enterprise who knows about Miranda’s decision, and doesn’t agree with it. Doesn’t mean the character in question (let’s say Geordi, who fits this bill well since he’s got unresolved abandonment issues, and has been reluctant to become friends with Miranda ‘because she took over Data’s spot’ – but what if there’s something a little deeper there) would be disrespectful to Miranda, it might not even prevent them from being friends – but not everyone has to agree with Miranda’s decision, and right now, there’s no sense of conflict here.

But all that’s just one idiot’s opinion on the internet. Now I’m going to play with my kids.
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Old January 18 2009, 06:54 PM   #401
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

^^Well, why not have a character back on Cestus III who knows about Vicenzo's decision and doesn't agree with it? Why is Miranda the only one being treated as though there's something wrong with her when it was a mutual decision? I think there is a double standard in evidence here.

I mean, Miranda's not the first ST character to leave a young child behind. What about Jack Crusher? He shipped back out with the Stargazer not long after Wesley was born, and he spent so little time with his family in the ensuing six years that Wesley barely got to know him. Jack made the exact same career choice that Miranda has. Yet I've never heard anyone criticize him for that choice or accuse him of "abandoning" his family -- perhaps because our society expects men to be focused on their careers and women to be focused on their families.
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Old January 18 2009, 07:32 PM   #402
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

Kirr wrote: View Post
William Leisner wrote: View Post
I think you give the authors far too much credit...
I think this cuts right to the heart of the matter, so I’m going to add my last thoughts based on this. [...]
Uh... Kirr? My comment was meant as nothing more than an amusing, self-deprecating comment in response to Steve Mollmann's post -- self-deprecating since I'm the next guy to deal with Miranda, Vicenzo and the kids. And as that guy, I'm avoiding saying anything more on the topic for the present time.
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Old January 18 2009, 07:39 PM   #403
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

Jean-Luc Picard wrote: View Post
If Kadohata is going to be criticised for that, however, then her husband Vicenzo must also come under scrutiny.
QFT.

He chose to remain with his career too, and his is arguably far less important than his wife's.
Erm... says who? I'd say teaching is one of the most important professions there are.

If we start weighing careers we'll open a Pandora's box (especially considering that females nowadays still occupy less paid, less well thought of jobs than men).
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Old January 18 2009, 09:17 PM   #404
Kirr
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

[SIZE=2]For clarity, and because I find that I can’t post here anymore due to my annoyance level, I’m going to make two last points.

First, as has been pointed out by myself and others already, this is not a sexism thing (at least not for me). If Miranda was a man, I’d still have this problem with 'him'. If this was Picard doing this, I’d be annoyed – and please, feel free to explore that with either Picard/Crusher or Riker/Troi and see how that goes. In the examples of conversation I gave before, if it was percieved as being only one sided – I can’t help how you perceived it. I can point out that, yes, please – have Miranda say ‘and why the hell didn’t you follow me to the Enterprise’. My point was/is that this conversation is not happening.

Secondly, William, I do understand that was a self-depreciating comment, and for the record, I look forward to reading Losing the Peace even if my issues with Miranda are not dealt with at all. I will say that your comment was made relative to a comment about ‘maybe the authors have a plan’ and my point was that I’m not assuming there is a plan, and that in fact since there are actually authors posting on these boards perhaps they’re looking for this kind of feedback and want to understand why a reader feels they way they do, and what they might be able to do differently to change that reader’s perception. Perhaps this has all been dealt with in your novel and it will be a moot point. Perhaps it hasn’t and some future author will gain some small kernel of insight from here.

With that said, I am done. David Mack, I’m sorry that this topic was completely derailed and that my message that I thought Gods of Night was awesome was lost in here. I look forward to reading book 2.
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Old January 18 2009, 09:30 PM   #405
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 1: Gods of Night - (SPOILERS)

Claudia wrote: View Post
Jean-Luc Picard wrote: View Post
If Kadohata is going to be criticised for that, however, then her husband Vicenzo must also come under scrutiny.
QFT.

He chose to remain with his career too, and his is arguably far less important than his wife's.
Erm... says who? I'd say teaching is one of the most important professions there are.

If we start weighing careers we'll open a Pandora's box (especially considering that females nowadays still occupy less paid, less well thought of jobs than men).
Teaching is definitely a massively important profession, but he teaches ancient languages that are no longer in use. When you compare that to Kadohata's job as second officer aboard the Enterprise, it doesn't seem particularly crucial.
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