RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 139,198
Posts: 5,404,263
Members: 24,759
Currently online: 435
Newest member: T_Grr

TrekToday headlines

Retro Review: Time’s Orphan
By: Michelle on Aug 30

September-October Trek Conventions And Appearances
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Lee Passes
By: T'Bonz on Aug 29

Trek Merchandise Sale
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek #39 Villain Revealed
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Trek Big Bang Figures
By: T'Bonz on Aug 28

Star Trek Seekers Cover Art
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Fan Film Axanar Kickstarter Success
By: T'Bonz on Aug 27

Two New Starship Collection Ships
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26

Trek Actor Wins Emmy
By: T'Bonz on Aug 26


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy

Science Fiction & Fantasy Farscape, Babylon 5, Star Wars, Firefly, vampires, genre books and film.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old January 16 2009, 05:22 AM   #46
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Elemental wrote: View Post
I think that TDK was implying that Joker and Batman would definitely meet again and that he would always be the arch-nemesis. "You and me... I think we're destined to do this forever." If there was a really good role for the Joker to return, i would be for him being recast, since there is already a precidence of recasting with Rachel Dawes.
Holmes, though, didn't own the character to such critical acclaim that people spoke out in horror when the character was recast.

Ledger did.
Yeah, but, again, the Joker is an inherently chaotic character. He doesn't even remember his past consistently from day to day according to Alan Moore's The Killing Joke, and he certainly gave different accounts of his past from scene to scene in the film. So I think the character allows for another actor who might even have a radically different interpretation.

Ledger's performance was amazing, and he deserves an Oscar for it. But this is a character with six decades of history who has been played by at least six actors that I know of. It's not a character about which there can ever be said to be one definitive interpretation.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 05:24 AM   #47
Trekker4747
Fleet Admiral
 
Trekker4747's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

Yes, he's such a radically unstable character who tells different stories of his scars for intimidation that he... completely changes his apperance...



This movie has no further use for the Joker. He's been used. Time to move on to other villains.
__________________
Out of hope.
Trekker4747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 05:26 AM   #48
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Yes, he's such a radically unstable character who tells different stories of his scars for intimidation that he... completely changes his apperance...
Different physical appearance? Oh, big frickin' deal. Maggie Gyllenhal doesn't look like Katie Holmes, but everyone just accepted that they were playing the same character.

And I'm not convinced he was deliberately telling different stories of his scars. I think that his memory honestly changed from scene to scene.

This movie has no further use for the Joker. He's been used. Time to move on to other villains.
Completely disagree. The Joker isn't used at all -- he's completely unresolved.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 05:28 AM   #49
Sephiroth
Vice Admiral
 
Sephiroth's Avatar
 
Location: Sephiroth
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

Perhaps a build up of Harley Quinn on a rampage leading to the Joker and Harley with the Riddler as a decent quality copycat
__________________
Green chile cheeseburgers, Red and Green chile burritos, Green and Red chile pizza with beef and chicken, Green chile chicken kung pao, Green chile wine, Green and Red chile popsicles...You can get Red and Green on everything here.
Sephiroth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 05:54 AM   #50
Trekker4747
Fleet Admiral
 
Trekker4747's Avatar
 
Location: Kansas City
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

Sci wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Yes, he's such a radically unstable character who tells different stories of his scars for intimidation that he... completely changes his apperance...
Different physical appearance? Oh, big frickin' deal. Maggie Gyllenhal doesn't look like Katie Holmes, but everyone just accepted that they were playing the same character.
She's a secondary character in both movies. Recasting her makes no difference and Holmes didn't "own" the role as much as Ledger did his.


And I'm not convinced he was deliberately telling different stories of his scars. I think that his memory honestly changed from scene to scene.
I guess we differ there. I took it that he just told different stories about it and not that he had some fucked up version of Korsakov's syndrome.

As we disagree on the "we could do this forever" line. I think it was just a wink and nod at Batman and The Joker being legendary foes in the "universe" they are in they WILL do it forever, but it'll be beyond the scope of these films as Batman has other villains to deal with in the interim.

This movie has no further use for the Joker. He's been used. Time to move on to other villains.
Completely disagree. The Joker isn't used at all -- he's completely unresolved.
What possible reolution could there be? He's captured and in Arkham, Batman doesn't kill and The Joker isn't going to turn over a new leaf.

He's been used, we've a few movies to explore Batman and how he deals with his villains so lets move on. There's no need to reuse the Joker.

Why do people complain about Superman using and reusing Luthor over and over in his movies instead of using his other villains but here people are clamoring for more Joker?

The only reason why the Joker was worth watching in this movie was because of Ledger's performance which you're going to have a hard time matching or topping so why try? It'll just come across as, well, trying.

No matter who you pick.

The Joker has been used, time to move on. We'll see the Joker again in 20 years with the NEXT batch of Batman films.

There's no way he can be used in any signifigant manner in the next Nolan film and for it to be half as good as Ledger's potrayal. It'll just come across as cheap, desperate and as pissing on Ledger's grave.

No more Joker beyond the most passing of references and winks in the next movie.
__________________
Out of hope.
Trekker4747 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 06:24 AM   #51
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Sci wrote: View Post
Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
Yes, he's such a radically unstable character who tells different stories of his scars for intimidation that he... completely changes his apperance...
Different physical appearance? Oh, big frickin' deal. Maggie Gyllenhal doesn't look like Katie Holmes, but everyone just accepted that they were playing the same character.
She's a secondary character in both movies.
She was an essential, main character in both movies.

Recasting her makes no difference and Holmes didn't "own" the role as much as Ledger did his.
I already addressed this: Ledger did not "own" the role because no one can own the role. It's one that has been interpreted many different ways by many different actors. Ledger's interpretation was perfect for The Dark Knight; another actor's might be perfect for Nolan's third film. Why would you want to inhibit creativity by limiting the role to only one actor if that actor is no longer around to play the part? Even Gary Oldman has said he thinks Ledger would have wanted the role re-cast so they could continue to advance that character.

I guess we differ there. I took it that he just told different stories about it and not that he had some fucked up version of Korsakov's syndrome.
That's a perfectly valid interpretation. Mine is based on the line from The Killing Joke by Alan Moore where the Joker notes that he remembers his history differently from day today. "If I have to have a past, I'd rather it be multiple choice!"

As we disagree on the "we could do this forever" line. I think it was just a wink and nod at Batman and The Joker being legendary foes in the "universe" they are in they WILL do it forever, but it'll be beyond the scope of these films as Batman has other villains to deal with in the interim.

This movie has no further use for the Joker. He's been used. Time to move on to other villains.
Completely disagree. The Joker isn't used at all -- he's completely unresolved.
What possible reolution could there be? He's captured and in Arkham, Batman doesn't kill and The Joker isn't going to turn over a new leaf.
That's exactly the issue, though. The Joker is a completely static character throughout The Dark Knight. He shows up with his agenda and enacts almost all of it, and, in the process, becomes fixated on the Batman. Well, that fixation is a dangling plot thread -- it practically SCREAMS that it needs to go somewhere. So I'm hoping that the Nolans and Goyer get together again and pound out a script that brings the Joker on an emotional journey next time -- instead of the seemingly almost-omnipotent and omniscient force of chaos, he instead maybe becomes consumed by his obsession with Batman and lets it get the better of him until it leads to his inevitable self-destruction. Then I would consider the character resolved.

Why do people complain about Superman using and reusing Luthor over and over in his movies instead of using his other villains but here people are clamoring for more Joker?
Because they can't do Lex Luthor properly, but they can the Joker.

There's no way he can be used in any signifigant manner in the next Nolan film and for it to be half as good as Ledger's potrayal.
I think that's completely unfair. There were folks who said the exact same thing about Ledger's interpretation as compared to Jack Nicholson's before Ledger's performance was finally seen. Ledger didn't have a monopoly on brilliant acting.

Besides, for my money, neither one quite compares with Mark Hamil's Joker from Batman: The Animated Series.

It'll just come across as cheap, desperate and as pissing on Ledger's grave.
That'd be absurd. Why would that be seen as "pissing on his grave?" It's continuing a story that Ledger himself wanted to continue.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 11:51 AM   #52
od0_ital
Admiral
 
od0_ital's Avatar
 
Location: Nacogdoches, Texas
Send a message via Yahoo to od0_ital
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

JonathonWally wrote: View Post
Bring in Harley Quinn and have her be just as insane.

It's time a Batman film had a complete homicidal female role.

Catwoman is too "gray" of a character to have her be a "big bad"
Agreed.

I'd love to see Harley Quinn in a Nolan film - and she'd be more believable than Catwoman. It would also show that while Batman is still workin' alone, without even Gordan and the police on his side, the Joker is "inspirin'" others to follow his example in Gotham.
__________________
od0's bucket od0's facebook
od0_ital is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 12:49 PM   #53
Locutus of Bored
A Certain Point of View
 
Locutus of Bored's Avatar
 
Location: The Force
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

Trekker4747 wrote: View Post
What possible reolution could there be? He's captured and in Arkham, Batman doesn't kill and The Joker isn't going to turn over a new leaf.

There's no way he can be used in any signifigant manner in the next Nolan film.
A significant part of the Batman mythos and indeed of the Nolan films has been escalation in response to Batman and the decline of the Mob in favor of the Freaks. Between the Joker, Dent, and Batman, the Mob is in shambles following TDK and the stage is set for the Freaks to take over in a big way.

Who better to orchestrate that change than the Joker, and where better to do so than from Arkham Asylum? Given his penchant for elaborate schemes (in spite of his claims otherwise), I wouldn't put it past him even to have wanted to be locked up in Arkham in order to gain access to Gotham's most depraved individuals. Being in prison has never stopped Mob bosses from running the business, and I see no reason why the Joker can't do the same while essentially having control of the Mob and its assets himself and access to people as crazy as he is. He already employed lower-level Arkham crazies as his henchman in this movie, he'd just be moving up to a better class of nutjob.

Have Harley Quinn be a psychiatrist and former protege of Dr. Jonathan Crane's Scarecrow while he was working at Arkham, so she's already damaged goods. And then she meets Joker when he's incarcerated there and really goes over the top into evil. You could have Scarecrow in there helping Joker or have them briefly be rivals for dominance of Arkham and for Harley's twisted affection, ending with Joker brutally killing him and establishing himself as leader of the pack in the asylum.

How cool would it be to have a scene of Harley Quinn presiding over a "group counselling" session with much of the Rogue's Gallery, where instead of treatment they're actually plotting the downfall of Batman and running the criminal empire of Gotham? She could declare some of them cured in order to get them back on the street, with the Joker fomenting chaos from behind bars as their leader.

If Joker's appearance is so bothersome to you, he can always be seen from behind (doing the voice shouldn't be too hard), but I'd love to see another actor's take on the character, especially someone like Paul Betanny or James Franco.
__________________
My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare
The lone and level sands stretch far away.
Locutus of Bored is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 02:02 PM   #54
Stone_Cold_Sisko
Vice Admiral
 
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

From everything I've seen and read, I just don't think Nolan is that kind of guy, I feel pretty confident we won't see the Joker again, I feel like Nolan would think it somehow disrespectful or not honoring Heath's memory to just recast Joker for the next movie. And I don't see Nolan as someone who's such a hardcore Batman fan that he just HAS to have Joker in the next film. I feel like, he'd be more "well, I had an idea for the Joker, but we're not doing that now... so we'll come up with a different story" and that will be that.

It's disappointing, but it also adds a little "meta" feeling to The Dark Knight, giving the movie extra weight, solidifying it as an iconic movie (and iconic Joker).
Stone_Cold_Sisko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 03:03 PM   #55
Gojirob
Rear Admiral
 
Gojirob's Avatar
 
Location: Going Super Diclonius 4...
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

Since this movie series is arguably the most reality-based Batman to date, maybe Nolan could choose to simply keep the Joker in Arkham forever. No escapes or revolving doors. Frankly the Arkham escape rate in other media is the equivalent of Highlander's 'where do they hide the sword?', in terms of having to ignore a regular plot device. The guards and staff in Nolan's Arkham aren't soft-hearted fools, and we don't see them, alive or dead, because they know how to handle supreme psychos, having taken their lumps in the Crane breakout. They don't approach them when they're ill without serious backup. They are vetted for being in cults or like that.

Just so this doesn't gut the Joker's concept, you could establish that he is under a separate security system so that even the 'mass Arkham breakout' trope doesn't get him out. More, you could have in BB3 Gordon disgustedly reading this quote from the Joker : "Why ever would I break out? I went to a lot of trouble to start this show, and now I wanna watch it play out."

Maybe this was meant to be merely Joker's first strike. Now, it will have to be that TDK was his 'masterpiece' and he is content to sit back and enjoy the chaos.
__________________
The Go-To For Accurate, Thorough Information about the dark, wonderful series called Elfen Lied, both manga and anime : http://elfen-lied.wikia.com/wiki/Elfen_Lied_Wiki
Gojirob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 04:48 PM   #56
exodus
Fleet Admiral
 
Location: The Digital Garden
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

Bad Bishop wrote: View Post
The Dark Knight didn't dwell on the actions of Ra's al Ghul, so I don't think the Nolan's next Batman film is really required to acknowledge the Joker. Let's just assume Joker's locked up in Arkham. How difficult should it be to introduce a new villain in the next film?
Exactly.
__________________
A Tiger doesn't loose sleep over the opinion of sheep.
exodus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 05:49 PM   #57
TheArsenal
Rear Admiral
 
TheArsenal's Avatar
 
Location: Sunny Southern California
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

Stone_Cold_Sisko wrote: View Post
From everything I've seen and read, I just don't think Nolan is that kind of guy, I feel pretty confident we won't see the Joker again, I feel like Nolan would think it somehow disrespectful or not honoring Heath's memory to just recast Joker for the next movie.
Agreed. Simply put, the real world forced his hand. This isn't any role. It's not the very much alive Katie Holmes doing a passable Rachel Dawes. It was the defining role of an actor who died tragically before his work hit the screen. It is a role which accolades and awards are being piled on - not only as an acknowledgment of his fine work - but as a eulogy of sorts.

Who wants to walk into that minefield? There are now so many pitfalls and potential negatives in the form of unfavorable press, comparisons and hard feelings, that I would imagine the cons far outweigh the pros. No one wants to have their film enter the cinemaplex with that kind of (potentially) negative baggage. Not when there are other stories to tell and other villains to tell it with.
__________________
"What's your name?"

"F*** you! That's my name. You know why mister? 'Cause you drove a Hyundai to get here tonight. I drove an eighty thousand dollar BMW. That's my name."
TheArsenal is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 07:31 PM   #58
Gojirob
Rear Admiral
 
Gojirob's Avatar
 
Location: Going Super Diclonius 4...
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

TheArsenal wrote: View Post
Stone_Cold_Sisko wrote: View Post
From everything I've seen and read, I just don't think Nolan is that kind of guy, I feel pretty confident we won't see the Joker again, I feel like Nolan would think it somehow disrespectful or not honoring Heath's memory to just recast Joker for the next movie.
Agreed. Simply put, the real world forced his hand. This isn't any role. It's not the very much alive Katie Holmes doing a passable Rachel Dawes. It was the defining role of an actor who died tragically before his work hit the screen. It is a role which accolades and awards are being piled on - not only as an acknowledgment of his fine work - but as a eulogy of sorts.

Who wants to walk into that minefield? There are now so many pitfalls and potential negatives in the form of unfavorable press, comparisons and hard feelings, that I would imagine the cons far outweigh the pros. No one wants to have their film enter the cinemaplex with that kind of (potentially) negative baggage. Not when there are other stories to tell and other villains to tell it with.
I'll play the part of the Joker, dammit!! Just as soon as I get through playing George Bailey and Vito Corleone in their respective remakes.
__________________
The Go-To For Accurate, Thorough Information about the dark, wonderful series called Elfen Lied, both manga and anime : http://elfen-lied.wikia.com/wiki/Elfen_Lied_Wiki
Gojirob is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 16 2009, 10:17 PM   #59
Captaindemotion
Vice Admiral
 
Captaindemotion's Avatar
 
Location: Ireland
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

They've done their Joker movie for this series. Why do we need to see him again? Particularly when Ledger did such a brilliant, memorable job and when any other actor will inevitably be compared (and probably negatively) to him?

As for the 'We're destined ...' line - well, maybe the Joker got it wrong. He is insane, after all He's in Arkham, locked up and it looks like his prediction was wrong. I don't think too much emphasis needs to be placed on that line. And even if it was intended to be significant, well, we the audience all know what's happened in reality and he we won't see him again in this particular bat-continuity. There will be other 'we' like him, other freaks and crazies. And the Batman has as good a rogues' gallery as any superhero. Let's see them instead.
__________________
Hodor!!!!!!!
Captaindemotion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old January 18 2009, 09:25 AM   #60
JacksonArcher
Vice Admiral
 
JacksonArcher's Avatar
 
Send a message via AIM to JacksonArcher
Re: The Joker - What would you do now?

I don't see why The Joker needs to return. I think it would be fun if he did, but only if Heath Ledger were still alive. I think seeing someone else as The Joker in a future Nolan-directed Batman film, besides being completely inplausible, just wouldn't work. Rachel Dawes was recast because the actress playing the part no longer had any interest in reprising the role. This is different. Heath Ledger isn't not interested, he's no longer with us. I think having another actor portray the role right after his performance would be seen as disrespecting his memory. I might not particularly agree with it, but I believe that would be the public perception.

With that said, there are a plethora of villains and stories out there. Considering that Nolan probably has one more Batman movie in him (if that), I don't want to see it wasted on characters we've seen before. Revisiting The Scarecrow was fun, but it was also only for one scene. We didn't have to sit through another movie with him, and I say this because films are a different medium... It's one thing in the comics to have villains reappear and take center stage for an issue or two, but these movies are made so sparingly and few & far between that I want to see something new and fresh. Having characters like The Scarecrow reappear, like I said, is fun, but not for the entire film. If Heath were alive, I'd love to see him making a Hannibal Lecter-esque return for a scene or so. But he's not, so out of respect for his memory and his performance, let's move on, shall we?

One thing I do hope is that he is at least acknowledged in the next fillm. I hated that Stryker or really anything in X2 was really left out or not mentioned in X-Men: The Last Stand. Since honestly, if it wasn't for Stryker, there would be no X-Men: The Last Stand. It's a bad analogy, but The Joker made a huge impact on the events of The Dark Knight and the events that will proceed, so I think a passing mention of him is a bit necessary. However, in retrospect, Ra's al Ghul's "contributions" to Batman Begins opened up the floodgates for what happened with the criminal and mob element in The Dark Knight, and he wasn't mentioned, as Bad Bishop accurately pointed out, so perhaps The Joker doesn't even need a passing mention.

I'd say...let Nolan figure it out. That's what he's good at, anyway.
__________________
"Please... We need you to hope again... " - Professor Charles Xavier, X-Men: Days of Future Past
JacksonArcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
batman, the joker

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:02 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.