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Old December 15 2008, 07:15 PM   #31
exodus
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

In all honesty, we can agree or disagree about Kes in "Fury" and about whos intentions were what. The main point is however, no matter what they did to the character, she was never going to return as a main character anyway. Alive or dead, good, bad or indifferent, Kes was gone for good.
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Old December 15 2008, 10:19 PM   #32
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Dasher'n'Dancer32 wrote: View Post
I doubt TPTB were purposely trying to enrage fans by ruining Kes.
We're lucky they even acknowledged the Kes fans at all. They're trying to run a tv program and can't cater to a vocal minority of the viewing audience. They probably thought it was a reasonable compromise that gave some closure to the character at the end of the episode. Obviously, they were not going to bring her back as a main character since Seven joined. And I don't think Jennifer Lien would've agreed to the episode if she thought its sole purpose was to intentionally ruin the character and piss off fans.
I can understand that many fans find it hard to think that they did p*** off the fans of the character on pupose.

But did they really believe that the fans of the character would like that episode?

And why suddenly bring back a character who they have tried everything to make the fans forget?

As I see it, they had two options: They could have brought her back for some episodes at the end of the series, restored her to normal and let her arrive to Earth with the rest of the crew or they could simply have left it as it was, not bringing her back at all (which would have been a much better solution).

Instead they went for the worst possible solution and they didn't even care to correct that when the negative response from the fans started to show up after the episode was aired.

And that really makes me wonder.

I guess that the refusal from many Kes fans to accept the whole thing can be seen as somewhat stubborn, provocative and even narrow-minded by those who don't like the character, don't care about her or only have a casual interest in the character as one of the Voyager characters.

I also guess that my rantings about how the character was mistreated can annoy certain posters as well. In that case I must apologize because it's not my intention to create conflicts over the character. However, I won't deny the fact that I still find the whole issue highly annoying and even insulting.

But when it comes to fandom and wishes to correct things, I recently read an article about the fans of a now defunct NHL ice-hockey team called Hartford Whalers. A hardcore group of fans in Hartford still consider the Hartford Whalers (and not the minor league replacement team the town has nowdays) as their favorite team, they wear the team jerseys on special occasions, celebrates certain events in the team history and are actually working for a possibility to restart the Hartford Whalers and have them back in the NHL in the coming future.

I guess that some of us Kes fans are pretty like them in some way.
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Old December 15 2008, 10:43 PM   #33
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

kimc wrote: View Post
I don't believe characters were intentionally ruined but writers/producers don't always have an accurate reading of what fans will find entertaining. Not only were Kes fans not happy with "Fury" but as mentioned above the book "Before Dishonor" made many unhappy and don't even get me started in this thread about my anger regarding "Endgame".

Yes, I get peeved too. I refuse to be egged on about it though.
Well I understand the fans would be upset, yes the Kes fans.

Still, was it always best to always have Kes to look weak all the time. The reson people do not like Kes was the idea she was to passive and let others make the rules.
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Old December 16 2008, 12:37 AM   #34
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Lynx wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post

As to what was going on in Fury.. I had some ideas last time I watched that ep (which was fairly recently). Firstly it highlights how we know NOTHING about Ocampans and how Kes herself knows very little about them. They are a stunted people as they exist on their own planet. They have enormous potential but when Kes begins to manifest that potential she has no role models, no idea what will come next. No training, no guidance, no clue.. imagine a Vulcan going through Pon Farr in a cave by himself without ever having heard about what it was or seen it. He would go insane! And might well try and kill the first people who approached him because he had no context for what he was experiencing so was highly threatened.

So Kes experiences changes for which she has no preparation and which terrify her--her lashing out and blaming it all on her family is typical of what adolescents go through--X 1000. For all we know it WAS a kind of adolescence, a maturing from youth into something greater. Obviously there is more to the Ocampans than the nine simple years Kes originally thought her lifespan would cover.

So Kes's response to her changes is much worse because she has no cultural context for it and it is terrifying. Her lashing out would not be as much of a problem if she was lashing out at other beings such as herself.. but she has no peers and the only ones she can blame are the only ones she has been in any kind of relationship with. Unfortunately they are in no position to rein in her anger because they are so weak.
I can see your point when it comes to the adolescence thing but the events in "Fury" still doesn't make any sense.

OK, a situation could occur where Kes could be p***ed off with Janeway and the others. But she would never try to kill them or harm them in any way. Such behavior would clearly be caused by a mental disorder and I don't like to see Kes portrayed this way. No other main character of Star trek have ever been thurned into mentally sick people and remained that way.
Some would say Dukat was turned into a mentally sick person and remained that way, just as an aside here. But I'm not saying she was mentally ill.

How do you know she would never try to kill them while in some adolescent rage? How many teenagers have yelled "I HATE YOU YOU'RE RUINING MY LIFE!!!" at their parents? That's basically what Kes does but magnified times a million. Now imagine such a level of anger and blame directed at Ocampans who were the matured version of whatever Kes is about to become -- beings who cannot be killed, maimed, destroyed by that anger, beings for whom this is the equivalent of cursing your parents out and slamming your bedroom door. Picture her behavior directed at Q for instance, it's a great big tantrum.

Besides that, Kes wasn't the typical neglected teenage kid. First of all, she had nothing to blame her crewmates for. They, especially Janeway, treated her in the best possible way. Second, Kes was a smart, level-headed strong-willed person who did show several times that she could overcome evil temptation and attempts from evil forces to control her. She was probably the last one on that ship who would have gone crazy in any way.
Well plenty of lovely smart 12 year olds who enjoy going shopping with their mothers turn into horrible emos who blame their parents for their existential angst and have hair trigger tempers. It happens and there's even a physiological explanation for it in humans to do with the development of the adolescent brain. Also nice as Janeway and the crew were to Kes they were unable to give her the guidance an evolved Ocampan would have given her because they simply had no idea.
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Old December 16 2008, 12:40 AM   #35
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

^^ Do you think she would have evolved as far if she'd remained with the other Caretaker's Ocampans?
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Old December 16 2008, 12:46 AM   #36
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

She wouldn't have evolved so far if she had remained under the Caretaker's care because their lives were so controlled and managed, both by the Caretaker's provisions and by their own cultures passivity. However now that they are left to their own devices who knows? Perhaps having lots of choices has a triggering effect on the Ocampan brain. You know how you can exercise your brain through doing math etc.. to develop you thinking capacity. Well the Ocampans under the Caretakers care had pretty much no exercise in thinking, making choices, learning about consequences. I expect more and more of them will developing dramatically now that their environment is no longer protected.
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Old December 16 2008, 02:14 AM   #37
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

^^ I was referring to the more psychically-advanced Ocampa, like Tanis, that lived with the Suspiria Caretaker in the episode "Cold Fire." These Ocampa had a lifespan of about 20 years as opposed to the 9 experienced on the Ocampa homeworld in "Caretaker" and could apparently control the growth of plants.
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Old December 16 2008, 02:43 AM   #38
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Dasher'n'Dancer32 wrote: View Post
^^ I was referring to the more psychically-advanced Ocampa, like Tanis, that lived with the Suspiria Caretaker in the episode "Cold Fire." These Ocampa had a lifespan of about 20 years as opposed to the 9 experienced on the Ocampa homeworld in "Caretaker" and could apparently control the growth of plants.
Is this the reason the caretaker did destroy the Ocampa in the first place because they had such great powers? We have to ask why the caretaker had such great quilt with the Ocampa that he spent the rest of his life to protect what was left.
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Old December 16 2008, 03:15 AM   #39
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Ezri II wrote: View Post
Dasher'n'Dancer32 wrote: View Post
^^ I was referring to the more psychically-advanced Ocampa, like Tanis, that lived with the Suspiria Caretaker in the episode "Cold Fire." These Ocampa had a lifespan of about 20 years as opposed to the 9 experienced on the Ocampa homeworld in "Caretaker" and could apparently control the growth of plants.
Is this the reason the caretaker did destroy the Ocampa in the first place because they had such great powers? We have to ask why the caretaker had such great quilt with the Ocampa that he spent the rest of his life to protect what was left.
The destruction of the planet, not the species, was the result of an accident -- somehow they (the Caretaker's species called the Nacene) didn't realize their exploration of the planet would result in such drastic events. They felt bad and decided to "take care" of the Ocampa to rectify their mistake, which eventually lead to an Ocampan dependency on the Caretaker. From MA

Ocampa has all the characteristics of a class-M planet, with the sole exception of the absence of nucleogenic particles – making the planet's atmosphere incapable of producing rain, and turning its surface into a desert. To the Ocampa, this period of time was known as "the Warming".
It was later discovered that this was an accidental side effect of the exploration of the planet by a group of Nacene. The Nacene constructed a vast underground city, two miles below the surface, for the Ocampa to live in following the disaster in the 14th century (Earth calendar), and left behind two members of the exploration team – Suspiria, and the one the Ocampa came to know as the Caretaker – to care for the race.
Although short of water, the planet is rich in cormaline deposits. The Kazon-Ogla sect maintain an encampment on the planet's southern continent to mine its resources. Jabin was the leader of this encampment in the early 2370s.
In 2371, the USS Voyager was transported to the area near Ocampa. It was at this time that the Caretaker passed away, having given the Ocampa enough surplus energy to keep the city running until 2376. (VOY: "Caretaker")
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Old December 16 2008, 07:46 AM   #40
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

teacake wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
teacake wrote: View Post

As to what was going on in Fury.. I had some ideas last time I watched that ep (which was fairly recently). Firstly it highlights how we know NOTHING about Ocampans and how Kes herself knows very little about them. They are a stunted people as they exist on their own planet. They have enormous potential but when Kes begins to manifest that potential she has no role models, no idea what will come next. No training, no guidance, no clue.. imagine a Vulcan going through Pon Farr in a cave by himself without ever having heard about what it was or seen it. He would go insane! And might well try and kill the first people who approached him because he had no context for what he was experiencing so was highly threatened.

So Kes experiences changes for which she has no preparation and which terrify her--her lashing out and blaming it all on her family is typical of what adolescents go through--X 1000. For all we know it WAS a kind of adolescence, a maturing from youth into something greater. Obviously there is more to the Ocampans than the nine simple years Kes originally thought her lifespan would cover.

So Kes's response to her changes is much worse because she has no cultural context for it and it is terrifying. Her lashing out would not be as much of a problem if she was lashing out at other beings such as herself.. but she has no peers and the only ones she can blame are the only ones she has been in any kind of relationship with. Unfortunately they are in no position to rein in her anger because they are so weak.
I can see your point when it comes to the adolescence thing but the events in "Fury" still doesn't make any sense.

OK, a situation could occur where Kes could be p***ed off with Janeway and the others. But she would never try to kill them or harm them in any way. Such behavior would clearly be caused by a mental disorder and I don't like to see Kes portrayed this way. No other main character of Star trek have ever been thurned into mentally sick people and remained that way.
Some would say Dukat was turned into a mentally sick person and remained that way, just as an aside here. But I'm not saying she was mentally ill.

How do you know she would never try to kill them while in some adolescent rage? How many teenagers have yelled "I HATE YOU YOU'RE RUINING MY LIFE!!!" at their parents? That's basically what Kes does but magnified times a million. Now imagine such a level of anger and blame directed at Ocampans who were the matured version of whatever Kes is about to become -- beings who cannot be killed, maimed, destroyed by that anger, beings for whom this is the equivalent of cursing your parents out and slamming your bedroom door. Picture her behavior directed at Q for instance, it's a great big tantrum.

Besides that, Kes wasn't the typical neglected teenage kid. First of all, she had nothing to blame her crewmates for. They, especially Janeway, treated her in the best possible way. Second, Kes was a smart, level-headed strong-willed person who did show several times that she could overcome evil temptation and attempts from evil forces to control her. She was probably the last one on that ship who would have gone crazy in any way.
Well plenty of lovely smart 12 year olds who enjoy going shopping with their mothers turn into horrible emos who blame their parents for their existential angst and have hair trigger tempers. It happens and there's even a physiological explanation for it in humans to do with the development of the adolescent brain. Also nice as Janeway and the crew were to Kes they were unable to give her the guidance an evolved Ocampan would have given her because they simply had no idea.
Yes, teenagers can act that way but how many of them become whackos and are trying to kill their parents? One in 20 millions, not even that. Besides that, Kes was no teenage kid, she was an equivalent to a 25-30 years old human.

And as I've stated before, Kes was a level-headed, strong-willed person who had showed many times that she could withstand evil temptations and attempts to take over her mind. She was the last one on that ship to go crazy.

Something like that could rather happen to Torres with her lousy temper and constant frustration, to Seven with her background as an abducted Borgified human, to Kim being constantly rejected and overlooked or to Vorik with his surpressed Vulcan urges. Those would be more possible canditates for insanity than Kes.
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Old December 16 2008, 08:16 AM   #41
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Lynx wrote: View Post
She was the last one on that ship to go crazy.
Ah but those are the ones you have to watch..

I think we are coming at this from two different angles. I am accepting what I see on the screen as the facts of what happened to that character and looking for an in-universe explanation for that which seems out of character. Really any time someone goes nuts and their family say "he was the nicest man! he was never any trouble!" an explanation is looked for. I put it down to the insanity of Ocampan adolescence. Her age is irrelevant as we have no idea what her life cycle will be. As I said, imagine her directing all that rage at Q and it would be naught but a tantrum.

However I accept that you are coming at this from outside the universe and saying No! This is not what should have happened! This is an attack on Kes fans!

I find it more fun to work out a good reason why a dumb character/plot detour happened in-universe. We already know why they happened outside of the universe: bad writing etc..
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Old December 16 2008, 09:10 AM   #42
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

teacake wrote: View Post
Lynx wrote: View Post
She was the last one on that ship to go crazy.
Ah but those are the ones you have to watch..

I think we are coming at this from two different angles. I am accepting what I see on the screen as the facts of what happened to that character and looking for an in-universe explanation for that which seems out of character. Really any time someone goes nuts and their family say "he was the nicest man! he was never any trouble!" an explanation is looked for. I put it down to the insanity of Ocampan adolescence. Her age is irrelevant as we have no idea what her life cycle will be. As I said, imagine her directing all that rage at Q and it would be naught but a tantrum.

However I accept that you are coming at this from outside the universe and saying No! This is not what should have happened! This is an attack on Kes fans!

I find it more fun to work out a good reason why a dumb character/plot detour happened in-universe. We already know why they happened outside of the universe: bad writing etc..
Well, actually I'm trying to do the same sometimes, finding or figuring out possible explanations for certain weird events or contradictions in the Star Trek universe.

You can always take a look at my "Voyager mysteries-and how to solve them" page at: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/P...mysteries.html

which is a part of my Kes Website.

I guess that "Fury" is the exception from that, probably because I don't want the character Kes to be destroyed and that I found the whole episode meaningless and annoying.
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Old December 16 2008, 04:12 PM   #43
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

Ezri II wrote: View Post
Still, was it always best to always have Kes to look weak all the time. The reson people do not like Kes was the idea she was to passive and let others make the rules.
In what ways was she weak or passive? People may love or hate the character for different reasons but I've never heard her called that before.
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Old December 17 2008, 12:10 AM   #44
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

I had a look around your website Lynx! Yes you are quite a Kes fan. On my third watching of VOY all the way through I warmed to her a bit but that was about it. I did think her backstory in Pathways was very interesting.

I think she was more stubborn then weak or passive.. but she was very quietly spoken so she appeared passive. This is is especially true if you contrast her with the other VOY women. Her manner was extremely gentle, which can be mistaken for passivity.
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Old December 17 2008, 12:15 AM   #45
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Re: "Fury" Kes, a Mirror Kes?

kimc wrote: View Post
Ezri II wrote: View Post
Still, was it always best to always have Kes to look weak all the time. The reson people do not like Kes was the idea she was to passive and let others make the rules.
In what ways was she weak or passive? People may love or hate the character for different reasons but I've never heard her called that before.
She did let NEELIX walk all over her.

She played nurse to a hologram.

Some time I just felt she was going to be used as a door stop and stay there and collect dust.
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