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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade Lost Souls
Excellent 130 72.22%
Above Average 35 19.44%
Average 12 6.67%
Below Average 1 0.56%
Poor 2 1.11%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 13 2008, 09:54 PM   #331
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I must add my comments finally on this book, and will go to other threads of the other two. I got them all on wed. afternoon and just finished Lost Souls 2 hours ago, so this is all still fresh for me. I have to say the series was simply stunning. Lost Souls was great for several reasons, most have been covered by others in this thread so i wont go on and make it all repetitive. I truely felt sorry for all of those humans from the Columbia that survived on that arctic island, but at the same time, the actual origin of the borg was fantastic. I had a feeling early on in the first book that they had SOME connection to them. I cannot wait till A Singular Destiny comes out in feb. definately getting that. I hope Full Circle goes in more detail about Voyagers roll during and after the fight. Also, i dont really remember seeing this but did any one else feel like the ds9 guys got the shaft in this one? really not even a mention on how ds9 was handling this, and where was the Defiant in all the fighting? it shoulda kicked some serious ass against the Borg; well at least i think it would have.
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Old December 13 2008, 10:00 PM   #332
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

BryanSorensen wrote: View Post
Also, i dont really remember seeing this but did any one else feel like the ds9 guys got the shaft in this one? really not even a mention on how ds9 was handling this, and where was the Defiant in all the fighting? it shoulda kicked some serious ass against the Borg; well at least i think it would have.
The DS9 novel line is still set four years before Destiny. Leaving most of the DS9 cast out of the action was necessary to avoid spoiling plot developments in the DS9 novels. It would've "shafted" them more to spoil years' worth of stories yet to be told.
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Old December 13 2008, 10:07 PM   #333
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Well, ok, ya got me there! I do remember Bowers referencing a few things that Ezri accomplished while she was on DS9 , so it wasn't totally devoid of DS9 stuff.....I just meant that it would have been more interesting to see sisko unclaok the Defiant and blow the hell out of some ships...hopefully 4 years after FS he decides he misses the center chair and just stays on the Defiant!
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Old December 13 2008, 10:10 PM   #334
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Intriguing. After nearly twenty years, I had no idea that "Locutus" meant something. I just assumed it was some sort of nonsense.
I remember turning a page in my Latin textbook and being hit with the new vocab word loquor, loquī, locūtus sum and going "Oh!"
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Old December 13 2008, 11:48 PM   #335
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Of course, that had me curious about the Ferengi that the Borg renamed Vastator in Vendetta. I don't know if I can trust online translators, but "Vastator" apparently means "Destroyer."
What "Vastator" means is wholly irrelevant to its use in Vendetta. "Vastator" was the nom du plume of someone who paid for an ad in Comics Buyer's Guide looking for dirt on Gary Groth, Fantagraphics, and The Comics Journal. This was in 1990, in the midst of one of the many billions of wars between Gary Groth and Harlan Ellison, and Groth believed that Ellison was Vastator. Peter was caught in the midst of that particular war, probably because he had the misfortune to be a) a mainstream comics writer of a type that Groth has never respected and b) a close friend of Harlan's.

(God, that brings back memories. In the early 90s, I actually wrote for the Journal -- a very short-lived tenure, that, in part because Groth screwed me more than once.......)
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Old December 13 2008, 11:58 PM   #336
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
I don't know if I can trust online translators, but "Vastator" apparently means "Destroyer."
Sounds reasonable. It's just two letters shy of "devastator."
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Old December 14 2008, 12:03 AM   #337
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
"Locutus" is basically Latin for "He Who Has Spoken." Picard was assimilated to be a spokesman for the Collective, and his name was based on that. (Well, actually it means more like "he who was talking just now." But that's close enough.)

"Logos" is a Greek term meaning a word, a concept, a principle, an explanation -- it's a very complex term. In the Biblical "In the Beginning was the Word," "the Word" is only a rough translation of Logos, the term used in the original Gospel. It means both the expression of a concept and the concept itself, both a word and its meaning -- "And the Word became flesh." Dave could explain better, but I'd guess that the Queen called her Logos because she was "the one we have waited for" -- the being that would give the Borg not only a new voice but new meaning.

Why are these names in Latin and Greek? Because it's Star Trek and aliens always seem to speak Latin or Greek. Or maybe because the Queen was coining these terms for human listeners, or maybe because the Borg descend from a human origin anyway.

That's one great thing about the Borg origin revealed here. It never made sense to me that a race of alien cyborgs would call themselves a name that's clearly derived from the English word "cyborg." But if they started out human, it makes a lot more sense.
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^^I guess going to a high school that teaches mandatory Latin classes affects the way you hear and think about language. To me, the first thing I'd notice about a name like "Locutus" is its similarity to "locution," "elocution," "interlocutor," etc. It's got a definite vibe of "Speaker." I'm actually surprised that anyone could hear the name and not notice the similarity. But I guess taking Latin trains you to think about how the parts of different words are related to each other, rather than just hearing each word in isolation.
Just a quick note to say that Christopher's explanation is spot-on -- that is exactly the meaning that was implied by my choice of the name. And whereas he was taught Latin in high school, I spent a semester immersed in Latin and Greek during my senior year of college, when I took a course in basic etymology.
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Old December 14 2008, 12:13 AM   #338
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

David Mack wrote: View Post
Just a quick note to say that Christopher's explanation is spot-on -- that is exactly the meaning that was implied by my choice of the name. And whereas he was taught Latin in high school, I spent a semester immersed in Latin and Greek during my senior year of college, when I took a course in basic etymology.
I suppose Thayer and Graylock did as well.
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Old December 16 2008, 03:42 AM   #339
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

David Mack wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
"Locutus" is basically Latin for "He Who Has Spoken." Picard was assimilated to be a spokesman for the Collective, and his name was based on that. (Well, actually it means more like "he who was talking just now." But that's close enough.)

"Logos" is a Greek term meaning a word, a concept, a principle, an explanation -- it's a very complex term. In the Biblical "In the Beginning was the Word," "the Word" is only a rough translation of Logos, the term used in the original Gospel. It means both the expression of a concept and the concept itself, both a word and its meaning -- "And the Word became flesh." Dave could explain better, but I'd guess that the Queen called her Logos because she was "the one we have waited for" -- the being that would give the Borg not only a new voice but new meaning.

Why are these names in Latin and Greek? Because it's Star Trek and aliens always seem to speak Latin or Greek. Or maybe because the Queen was coining these terms for human listeners, or maybe because the Borg descend from a human origin anyway.

That's one great thing about the Borg origin revealed here. It never made sense to me that a race of alien cyborgs would call themselves a name that's clearly derived from the English word "cyborg." But if they started out human, it makes a lot more sense.
Christopher wrote: View Post
^^I guess going to a high school that teaches mandatory Latin classes affects the way you hear and think about language. To me, the first thing I'd notice about a name like "Locutus" is its similarity to "locution," "elocution," "interlocutor," etc. It's got a definite vibe of "Speaker." I'm actually surprised that anyone could hear the name and not notice the similarity. But I guess taking Latin trains you to think about how the parts of different words are related to each other, rather than just hearing each word in isolation.
Just a quick note to say that Christopher's explanation is spot-on -- that is exactly the meaning that was implied by my choice of the name. And whereas he was taught Latin in high school, I spent a semester immersed in Latin and Greek during my senior year of college, when I took a course in basic etymology.
For some reason thinking of the Borg and Latin Class reminds me of that episode of Family Guy where Stewie is controlling Chris with the technology and he talks about Latin Class.
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Old December 16 2008, 04:38 AM   #340
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

KRAD wrote: View Post
(God, that brings back memories. In the early 90s, I actually wrote for the Journal -- a very short-lived tenure, that, in part because Groth screwed me more than once.......)
He must have done something right, though, to get a Klingon vessel named after him.
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Old December 16 2008, 10:31 PM   #341
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^ OT: I have a ship named after me in Armada 2.
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Old December 19 2008, 10:35 AM   #342
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

I haven't posted too much in this forum recently but having finished this epic trilogy a few days ago (which I flew through in comparisson to other books I've recently read), I had to leave some comments.

First of all, David, I love how you always include some of the musical inspirations at the end of your novels... many times they've been soundtracks I've already been a fan of, but Destiny was the first time that I actually went to the effort of getting the music tracks I didn't have and listening to them all while reading. It REALLY increased the epicness factor bigtime!

It was known from our initial introduction to "Destiny" that it was going to be on a scale of its own. While we did get to see some interesting developments such as the origins and new evolution of the Borg, I am left a little bit disappointed though that the biggest claim Destiny has to being "game-changing" as far as the Star Trek universe is concerned was in simply massacreing a bunch of worlds and starships. While we've never seen anything on this scale before, blowing up ships and scorching planets isn't anything we haven't seen before in numerous Star Trek series. Perhaps the hype just had my sights set a little too high, but I felt almost as if the "scale of epicness" of this novel was attempting to be made by the number of deaths they packed in. Sure, there will be consequences, but really, the Federation isn't left that different from what it was before (minus a few relatively minor worlds). But this just seems like the next standard step in a progression of destruction... in TNG when the Borg destroyed 39 ships, we were told that was big. Then in DS9 we had the Dominion War which destroyed more, but other than being told the Federation was "weakened", business proceeded as usual. Now, this is the next step up from there... In my mind, "game-changing" would have been doing something like removing the ability for warp drive, or causing all Vulcans to go insane after poisoning their ability to mindmeld, or forcing a complete reorganization of characters and defining new crew purposes resulting in totally reshaped novel series. Plain old death and destruction though... been there, done that. Although we do have a brand new race to deal with now, I don't get the impression that they are going to be much of an ongoing continued presence. I hope that we are really able to get a sense of how much things really have changed in the upcoming follow-up novels.

I think my favourite parts of the novels were those featuring Bacco and her administration. I've always been a fan of political drama (real and imagined) and Articles of the Federation was my first novel re-introducing me to Trek literature. I remember one of my few complaints then being that the characters the expected decorum of heads of state, but having since watched (and loved) The West Wing series, I can now understand what some of that was based on. Anyways, I love the Bacco sequences' ability to focus in on "the big picture" and how it manages to encompass all aspects of the Star Trek universe and its various series. KRAD, I know you based Bacco off your grandmother so it would be inappropriate for me to ask about a picture to have a face in mind when reading her story sequences, but I still am having a great deal of trouble NOT picturing the old-Janeway of "Endgame" who seemed to share Bacco's cynical sense of humour.

Other strengths of the novels were their ability to focus on MANY characters and still feel like there was character development happening in the meantime. I only wish that Voyager could have played a bigger role in the stories as I still consider the Borg to have been a slightly greater nemesis for that series than they were for TNG (just as I feel Romulans were more the baddies of TNG even though they were introduced in TOS). At least 7 of 9 played a role, but as in recent novels, she's proven to be more of a pig-headed pessimistic annoyance than the multi-faceted character I recall from the series and maybe the early VOY-R books I've read.

I think the most unfortunate disappointment in terms of characterization though was how bloody annoying Picard was most of the time. Yeah, I get that he has a special insight into the Borg's power, but the constant doom-and-gloom attitude he was portraying was becoming quite overbearing. Also, what's with all of Picard's French-cursing in the novels (not just Destiny)? I don't recall EVER seeing Picard speak French in the series so it always strikes me as a little odd when I've seen it in the novels... "merde!" I did, however, love Picard's extreme discomfort with the idea of his office and its contents being burned as it seemed to harken back to his brother and nephew's death in a fire. This actually makes me realize that the action sequence with Hirogen may actually be the most memorable one involving our heroes since most of the time with the Borg was spent attacking planets and killing nameless or more minor characters.

I decided to read these novels even though I'm 3 books behind on the Titan series. Probably the most unfortunate spoiler this resulted in was Deanna's current and past pregnancy. I think that this was an excellent storypoint through Destiny though and when she ended up down with the Caeliar, I became almost certain that they would heal her baby. Now, with Riker having a daughter and Picard having a son, I can't imagine that the creative team behind the novels hasn't toyed with the idea of these children being a future couple in the making. I for one think it's a really cool idea to literally be starting to see the shaping of 'the next generation'. I think that now that I have read Destiny, I'm going to try and keep up with the upcoming Titan novels while at the same time catching up on the 3 I'm behind on.

I found the inclusion of the real-science relativistic time travel to be intriguing as it's something that the series and movies have never really dealt with. I am, however, curious as to the reasons why the creatrors chose to go by this road... The Columbia had already been flung far off into a distant part of space with disabled warp engines. Was there any specific reasons why Hernandez couldn't have simply encountered the Caeliar in their "present" time around 2155? Why did they have to be displaced more than a decade into the future first? It obviously did enhance their sense of isolation but was this the only reason?

While the novel really was quite epic every step of the way, I did find many of the Caeliar/Columbia sequences very tedious to get through sometimes. While I understand the reason for its inclusion, watching the 4 female Columbia officers age and then later watching Hernandez and Inyx's complicated relationship seemed to really kill the buildup in pace at times... Seeing the differences in how the 4 women attempted to cope with their isolation was something that proved interesting to see, however (even though the end result seemed spelled out fairly early on).

I smiled at the inclusion of "Therin Park" on Andor which I can only assume was a nod to one of our fellow TrekBBS members. If any author ever wishes to feature a "Captain Elemental" in their story, rest assured you have my full permission!

I think Destiny's greatest strength was in its all-encompassing cross-over nature that really let us see elements of Star Trek tied together that we haven't seen before. In many ways, it really did feel like a culmunation of everything that had come before, and now we get to see how the series branch off again in their separate ways. Of the upcoming follow-up novels, I'm most curious about "A Singular Destiny". I read the blurb on the SimonSays website but am still uncertain as to the major focuses of this novel. Have there been any further details given about what the content of this novel will be or what crew/group it will be spending the most time focusing on?

Anyway, despite listing some minor criticisms above, Destiny definitely was an exhilarating read unlike anything that has come before. It definitely leaves me with a renewed interest to continue following what awaits the Star Trek universe from here.
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Old December 19 2008, 03:25 PM   #343
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Elemental wrote: View Post
It was known from our initial introduction to "Destiny" that it was going to be on a scale of its own. While we did get to see some interesting developments such as the origins and new evolution of the Borg, I am left a little bit disappointed though that the biggest claim Destiny has to being "game-changing" as far as the Star Trek universe is concerned was in simply massacreing a bunch of worlds and starships. While we've never seen anything on this scale before, blowing up ships and scorching planets isn't anything we haven't seen before in numerous Star Trek series. Perhaps the hype just had my sights set a little too high, but I felt almost as if the "scale of epicness" of this novel was attempting to be made by the number of deaths they packed in. Sure, there will be consequences, but really, the Federation isn't left that different from what it was before (minus a few relatively minor worlds).
Now, that's hardly fair. First of all, a lot of the expectations you have about Destiny are probably from exaggerated hype and speculation rather than anything that was officially promised. Second, there are definitely some major changes here. The Borg threat is gone forever. Picard is free of his bete noire and about to begin a new phase of his life with a new attitude. The Picards and the Rikers are both about to become parents. The Aventine has become a major player in Starfleet. Many characters went through major changes in their relationships. And there are other changes and consequences, both astropolitical and personal, that won't really be seen until you read A Singular Destiny, Over a Torrent Sea, Full Circle, and Losing the Peace.

In my mind, "game-changing" would have been doing something like removing the ability for warp drive, or causing all Vulcans to go insane after poisoning their ability to mindmeld, or forcing a complete reorganization of characters and defining new crew purposes resulting in totally reshaped novel series.
I'd call those more "gimmicky" and "gratuitous" than "game-changing." Nobody ever said this was going to be random change just for the sake of change or for shock value. It's a massive event that rises organically out of the established history and that has long-term consequences that will be felt in all the literature to come. But as in real life, not all those consequences will be immediately obvious or glaring. (After the bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the only consequences people saw were the defeat of Japan and the immediate death and destruction. Nobody anticipated the far greater death toll from radiation sickness, a decades-long nuclear arms race between two wartime allies, the many regional wars fought by proxy between the stalemated nuclear powers, the rise of Islamic militancy in response to regional tensions exacerbated by that Cold War rivalry, the rebuilding of Japan into a major economic power, etc.)


I decided to read these novels even though I'm 3 books behind on the Titan series. Probably the most unfortunate spoiler this resulted in was Deanna's current and past pregnancy.
Well, that's not really a Titan spoiler, because there's a gap of about eight months between Sword of Damocles and Destiny. In Orion's Hounds, Riker and Deanna decided to start a family, and in SoD, they were undergoing fertility treatments but hadn't yet conceived. So the miscarriage and second pregnancy were revealed for the first time in Gods of Night.

Now, with Riker having a daughter and Picard having a son, I can't imagine that the creative team behind the novels hasn't toyed with the idea of these children being a future couple in the making.
Never occurred to me. Heck, they aren't even born yet. A little early to be picking china patterns.


I found the inclusion of the real-science relativistic time travel to be intriguing as it's something that the series and movies have never really dealt with. I am, however, curious as to the reasons why the creatrors chose to go by this road... The Columbia had already been flung far off into a distant part of space with disabled warp engines. Was there any specific reasons why Hernandez couldn't have simply encountered the Caeliar in their "present" time around 2155? Why did they have to be displaced more than a decade into the future first? It obviously did enhance their sense of isolation but was this the only reason?
Well, it was cool. It's also reasonable. As you say, they were in deep space without warp engines -- it would be unrealistic for them to just happen to be within a few days' or weeks' impulse travel of an inhabited system (although that happened more than once onscreen). And the Caeliar certainly weren't going to go out and meet them.


Of the upcoming follow-up novels, I'm most curious about "A Singular Destiny". I read the blurb on the SimonSays website but am still uncertain as to the major focuses of this novel. Have there been any further details given about what the content of this novel will be or what crew/group it will be spending the most time focusing on?
It's mostly focusing around an original character created by KRAD, but the Bacco administration and the Aventine crew are also involved, along with some other familiar faces.
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Old December 19 2008, 06:08 PM   #344
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Elemental wrote: View Post
Sure, there will be consequences, but really, the Federation isn't left that different from what it was before (minus a few relatively minor worlds).
The damage was considerably more than that..............


I think my favourite parts of the novels were those featuring Bacco and her administration. I've always been a fan of political drama (real and imagined) and Articles of the Federation was my first novel re-introducing me to Trek literature. I remember one of my few complaints then being that the characters the expected decorum of heads of state, but having since watched (and loved) The West Wing series, I can now understand what some of that was based on. Anyways, I love the Bacco sequences' ability to focus in on "the big picture" and how it manages to encompass all aspects of the Star Trek universe and its various series. KRAD, I know you based Bacco off your grandmother so it would be inappropriate for me to ask about a picture to have a face in mind when reading her story sequences, but I still am having a great deal of trouble NOT picturing the old-Janeway of "Endgame" who seemed to share Bacco's cynical sense of humour.
It was my great-grandmother, actually, who died in 2003 at the age of 98.

If you see Admiral Janeway, that's fine and dandy -- readers have their own interpretations, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that -- though I don't recall much of a cynical sense of humor. What I do recall from "Endgame" was a selfish, bitter character who destroyed a perfectly good timeline for her own selfish, bitter desires, and screw the consequences. Since those consequences include the massive death toll in Destiny (the Borg's recent decision to put a hit on the Federation was a direct result of the destruction of the transwarp hub in "Endgame"), Admiral Janeway is, to me, one of the greatest villains of modern Star Trek.

So if it's all the same to you, I'd rather just stick with my Nana as the template.


Also, what's with all of Picard's French-cursing in the novels (not just Destiny)? I don't recall EVER seeing Picard speak French in the series so it always strikes me as a little odd when I've seen it in the novels... "merde!"
Picard actually used "merde" several times in the first season, but never after that. My guess is that Broadcast Standards & Practices took until the second season to realize what it meant.


Of the upcoming follow-up novels, I'm most curious about "A Singular Destiny". I read the blurb on the SimonSays website but am still uncertain as to the major focuses of this novel. Have there been any further details given about what the content of this novel will be or what crew/group it will be spending the most time focusing on?
It will focus on the brand-new character of Sonek Pran, a historian/diplomat who occasionally does work for the Federation government. However, there will be a butt-load of characters in this one, as the novel looks at the wider consequences of what happened in Destiny. We'll see the Aventine, a bunch of other starships, several leaders of nations (Bacco, Martok, Tal'Aura, Donatra), and tons more.

And if you want game-changing -- wait'll you get to the end of ASD.
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Old December 19 2008, 06:16 PM   #345
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

I'm not sure how the loss of sixty-three billion people, including extensive damage to Vulcan, Andor, and Qo'noS -- to say nothing of the apparent extermination of Coridan, Risa, Deneva, and numerous other, as-yet-unestablished worlds -- doesn't constitute a game-changer.
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