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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade Lost Souls
Excellent 130 72.22%
Above Average 35 19.44%
Average 12 6.67%
Below Average 1 0.56%
Poor 2 1.11%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 11 2008, 03:59 AM   #316
Sci
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Marie1 wrote: View Post
Stephen! wrote: View Post
Marie1 wrote: View Post
Maybe in the future someone catches Section 31 so they can't attempt genocide anymore...
They are finally brought to justice by the 25th century.

http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Section_31#25th_Century

The existence and activities of Section 31 were exposed to the general public by the early 25th century and its agents brought to justice for their crimes. The public release of Section 31's files and records ended over 300 years of the bureau's illegal and unsanctioned black-ops and infiltration programs. (The Good That Men Do)
That was strange and unexpected... I'd heard a bit about what TGTMD was about... but this I didn't see coming...
You probably should have seen it coming. 2001's Section 31 mini-series featured each of the then-three canonical captains sans Sisko -- Kirk in 2268, Picard in 2373, and Janeway in 2374 -- becoming aware of the existence of Section 31 and vowing to find a way to bring them to justice. The foreshadowing seemed obvious to me at the time.

And, sure enough, The Good That Men Do confirms that Section 31 is eventually uncovered and brought to justice. The only thing remaining to be told is the story of how they were brought to justice.
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Old December 11 2008, 04:29 AM   #317
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Marie1 wrote: View Post
Its easy to forget that nice people with loved ones are also Borg- so maybe they can be dealt with less ruthlessly by the MU due to the revelations of the Destiny story...
I don't see the connection. Destiny dealt only with the 'real' universe, it had no MU connections whatsoever. No one in the MU is, or could be, aware of anything that happened in Destiny. If there is any relationship at all between the two universes' Borg, we are not aware of it yet.

My concern is simply regarding the Borg as fictional characters (not how actual characters would deal with them). David Mack went to a lot of trouble to write this - to finally, unambiguously, END the Borg. If the MU Borg suddenly show up later on, doesn't that cheapen Destiny just a little bit?
But if I'm not mistaken- there are Borg in the MUs, at least in lit. So, unless the Caeliar dealt with or deal with them... then they're there. And I don't think that would cheapen it- I think the RU's experience, since we know contact with the MUs is possible, could help them deal with it- if it comes up. It may not. I'm just saying I won't be furious if they show up in some capasity again- Mack made the Borg scary for me, I wasn't afraid of them at all before- just hand me a Tommy gun... but that won't work against a cube. So now, since they actually cause me to feel emotions, I wouldn't mind if they popped in... thats all I meant.

Sci wrote: View Post
Marie1 wrote: View Post
Stephen! wrote: View Post

They are finally brought to justice by the 25th century.

http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Section_31#25th_Century

The existence and activities of Section 31 were exposed to the general public by the early 25th century and its agents brought to justice for their crimes. The public release of Section 31's files and records ended over 300 years of the bureau's illegal and unsanctioned black-ops and infiltration programs. (The Good That Men Do)
That was strange and unexpected... I'd heard a bit about what TGTMD was about... but this I didn't see coming...
You probably should have seen it coming. 2001's Section 31 mini-series featured each of the then-three canonical captains sans Sisko -- Kirk in 2268, Picard in 2373, and Janeway in 2374 -- becoming aware of the existence of Section 31 and vowing to find a way to bring them to justice. The foreshadowing seemed obvious to me at the time.

And, sure enough, The Good That Men Do confirms that Section 31 is eventually uncovered and brought to justice. The only thing remaining to be told is the story of how they were brought to justice.
And Abyss? Did that fit in at all? (Bear in mind- the years make my brain fuzzy). Cause I remember Bashir and Vaugn's discussion... and figured they'd be found eventually... maybe. They must have good hiding skills.

Though I feel less out of the loop knowing that we don't know the how yet.
I rarely venture out of the DS9R, since thats were all my favourites are, for the most part... so I need to be caught up from time to time. Which you guys are awesome at...
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Old December 11 2008, 05:23 AM   #318
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Marie1 wrote: View Post
I think the RU's experience, since we know contact with the MUs is possible, could help them deal with it- if it comes up.
The Caeliar were the only way to permanently deal with the Borg in the RU, so unless the RU Caeliar somehow absorbed the MU Borg as well, or this whole thing coincidentally happened on its own in the other universe (with Mirror counterparts of the Caeliar, the Columbia crew, etc.), I don't see how that is relevant.

In fact I'd wager that the latter explanation would be pretty much impossible, since much of Destiny depended on characters from the 24th century - who either have not yet been shown to exist *at all* in the MU, or who are so different there that the chances of Destiny happening in the MU are so absurdly remote as to not even be worth mentioning.
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Old December 11 2008, 06:42 AM   #319
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Question for David Mack: How/why did you choose the planets/species the Borg annihilated?

I'm guessing people over at Paramount also had to okay the choices, but how do they decide too? And who are they? ...They must be trekkies also or they wouldn't know a Vorta from a Horta.
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Old December 11 2008, 06:46 AM   #320
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

^On that same note, how was the decision to kill off certain characters (Owen Paris, Charivretha, T'Lana, ect) made?
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Old December 11 2008, 06:53 AM   #321
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

What should be established is whether the Borg could be created in the Mirror Universe.

Since the Borgs creation in our plane required a series of unfortunate events initiated by both chance and the personal decisions of several people (of which some will likely be dead in the MU),its nigh-impossible that the Borg could be created in the MU the same chance/convoluted way they were spawned here.

This brings me to my next hypothesis:
Isin't it more likely,then ,that the Borg in the Mirror Universe crossed over from our side ?
All it would take is one cube shunted into the MU by chance,and the rest would be history.
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Old December 11 2008, 06:59 AM   #322
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Post deleted in favor of David's response below.

Last edited by William Leisner; December 11 2008 at 05:44 PM.
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Old December 11 2008, 07:32 AM   #323
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Arpy wrote: View Post
Question for David Mack: How/why did you choose the planets/species the Borg annihilated?
I based my account of the destruction of systems and planets on a circular expansion away from the center of the Azure Nebula, as depicted in Geoffrey Mandel's reference book Star Trek: Star Charts.

I'm guessing people over at Paramount also had to okay the choices, but how do they decide too? And who are they? ...They must be trekkies also or they wouldn't know a Vorta from a Horta.
The licensing approvals for Star Trek currently rest with CBS Televison. However, it has been the same two people serving as the arbiters for the past several years, despite the changes in corporate letterhead: Paula M. Block and John Van Citters. And yes, they are both extremely knowledgeable about Star Trek. Their input and advice is almost always spot-on and very valuable, at least in my experience.

Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
^On that same note, how was the decision to kill off certain characters (Owen Paris, Charivretha, T'Lana, ect) made?
I wanted to depict the consequences of the Borg invasion by showing the tragic fates of minor characters previously established either on screen or prominently in the novels. Whenever possible, I tried to select characters who had strong emotional connections to our ongoing series' principal cast. That is why we see Shar's mom, Tuvok's son, Paris's father, a former Enterprise officer, and starship crews and officers from my previous Star Trek novels set during this late 24th-century time period.
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Old December 11 2008, 05:54 PM   #324
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

David Mack wrote: View Post
Arpy wrote: View Post
Question for David Mack: How/why did you choose the planets/species the Borg annihilated?
I based my account of the destruction of systems and planets on a circular expansion away from the center of the Azure Nebula, as depicted in Geoffrey Mandel's reference book Star Trek: Star Charts.
Which, admittedly, is imperfect, since that's a 2-D projection of 3-D star positions. For instance, in the map, Acamar and Barolia (the first two systems hit in the invasion) look very close together, but they're actually a hundred light-years apart. But that's okay, since it stands to reason that the Borg's invasion strategy would've been a little more complex than just expanding in a sphere.
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Old December 12 2008, 07:56 AM   #325
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

well, I finished the book last night (it's almost 09:00 AM here), and I wanted to think a little about I'd read.. contemplate what I thought of the book in particular and of the trilogy in general.

Mr. Mack, thank you.

Thank you for the greatest Trek epic EVER (IMO, of course).

From the suspense and action to the character moments (both larger than life and intimate), from the sheer hopelessness of the situation (I really thought before starting Gods of Night that Earth and\or the UFP are done for) to the poignant conclusion so true to the spirit of Star Trek, this entire trilogy (and every book in itself) are a Trek masterpiece and the magnum opus which sets the bar for all TrekLit..

10/10
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Old December 12 2008, 11:35 AM   #326
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Silversmok3 wrote: View Post
What should be established is whether the Borg could be created in the Mirror Universe.

Since the Borgs creation in our plane required a series of unfortunate events initiated by both chance and the personal decisions of several people (of which some will likely be dead in the MU),its nigh-impossible that the Borg could be created in the MU the same chance/convoluted way they were spawned here.

This brings me to my next hypothesis:
Isin't it more likely,then ,that the Borg in the Mirror Universe crossed over from our side ?
All it would take is one cube shunted into the MU by chance,and the rest would be history.
Please don't give them ideas' for more Borg stories... I think I've had all I can stomach.
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Old December 13 2008, 09:05 PM   #327
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Well, I started with Book One on Wednesday and finished Book Three about an hour ago. Aside from tension in my neck and my eyesight going to crap, I must say that this was quite the experience the whole way through. I'll go into more depth later, but I just wanted to say that this was perhaps the pinnacle of over a decade of Trek Lit and if this doesn't deserve to form the basis of a swansong film for the characters of the 24th Century, it'd make one hell of a mini-series on television.

Quick question, though: there was one little plot point I thought was going to be expanded upon but wasn't addressed unless I skimmed over it. Why did the Queen call Hernandez Logos of Borg? Heck, why did she name Picard Locutus in the first place? I thought there'd be something there that would explain it, that perhaps they were Caeliar names that the Collective half-remembered.
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Old December 13 2008, 09:16 PM   #328
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

"Locutus" is basically Latin for "He Who Has Spoken." Picard was assimilated to be a spokesman for the Collective, and his name was based on that. (Well, actually it means more like "he who was talking just now." But that's close enough.)

"Logos" is a Greek term meaning a word, a concept, a principle, an explanation -- it's a very complex term. In the Biblical "In the Beginning was the Word," "the Word" is only a rough translation of Logos, the term used in the original Gospel. It means both the expression of a concept and the concept itself, both a word and its meaning -- "And the Word became flesh." Dave could explain better, but I'd guess that the Queen called her Logos because she was "the one we have waited for" -- the being that would give the Borg not only a new voice but new meaning.

Why are these names in Latin and Greek? Because it's Star Trek and aliens always seem to speak Latin or Greek. Or maybe because the Queen was coining these terms for human listeners, or maybe because the Borg descend from a human origin anyway.

That's one great thing about the Borg origin revealed here. It never made sense to me that a race of alien cyborgs would call themselves a name that's clearly derived from the English word "cyborg." But if they started out human, it makes a lot more sense.
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Old December 13 2008, 09:23 PM   #329
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

Intriguing. After nearly twenty years, I had no idea that "Locutus" meant something. I just assumed it was some sort of nonsense.

Of course, that had me curious about the Ferengi that the Borg renamed Vastator in Vendetta. I don't know if I can trust online translators, but "Vastator" apparently means "Destroyer."
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Old December 13 2008, 09:31 PM   #330
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny Book 3: Lost Souls - (SPOILERS)

^^I guess going to a high school that teaches mandatory Latin classes affects the way you hear and think about language. To me, the first thing I'd notice about a name like "Locutus" is its similarity to "locution," "elocution," "interlocutor," etc. It's got a definite vibe of "Speaker." I'm actually surprised that anyone could hear the name and not notice the similarity. But I guess taking Latin trains you to think about how the parts of different words are related to each other, rather than just hearing each word in isolation.
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