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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade Lost Souls
Excellent 131 72.38%
Above Average 35 19.34%
Average 12 6.63%
Below Average 1 0.55%
Poor 2 1.10%
Voters: 181. You may not vote on this poll

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Old December 4 2008, 08:43 PM   #271
Enterprise1981
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I just bought the book yesterday and I read the last two chapters first. It seems like something out of Babylon 5: the Caeliar/Vorlons are the more benign race but still fearful of so-called "inferior races". In the B5 universe, no expedition to the Vorlon homeworld had ever returned, that rang true with the Caeliar. The Borg/Shadows are the all-powerful malevolent force that everyone in the galaxy fears.
That's where the analogy ends. In the B5 universe, the Vorlons and Shadows were around to "help" the younger races find that middle ground between order and chaos. The Caeliar and the Borg merge into a more powerful force for good. It could have gone the other way and our heroes would have been totally screwed. I guess that's where all the drama is.

From the reviews, it seems pretty intriguing. I'll go back and the read the whole book.
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Old December 4 2008, 09:31 PM   #272
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I know I am late on this, but I want to congratulate David Mack for a marvelous series of books and a great, great story.

The problem with fiction in general is that there has to be some parts of it that stretch reality so that some problems in the narrative cannot be solved. The idea of people blaming humanity for the Borg is one of them. Our POV as readers helps us to understand everything about the origins of the Borg. When Piccard and his staff write their after-action report, and probably all three captains would write one detailed report together along with their staffs, the reports would not say that humans/Caeliar are the termius a quo of the Borg. The evidence they would know, even given all the live recrods they would have access to, would not be enough to say that this is reality. So I think the revenge on human problem probably would never happen.

I have two questions which I may expand into a few more questions:

1. Picard is percived by many as out of character, since he is so negative against the plans of Dax/Hernandez? May I submit that more every major war decision has opposition to it, even the most successful ones? Piccard was too depressed, for lack of a better word, for whatever reason to come up with the great wining idea/plan. Okay, but if nobody ever challenged Dax/Hernadez in their thinking, or send a large part of their crews to help them, the plans would not have worked. Piccard was not such a wet blanket as some suggest IMO. Should have been tougher, yes. But read Eisenhower writing about before D-Day, or Grant and Lee's writings about their role in the American Civil War. They never had such crises of the soul as Picard?

2. I personally think our esteemed author made a mistake about the Thaerlon Raidiation order of Piccard and the refusal of LaForge to do it. Piccard was right, and LaForge was wrong, and any sane commander would have sacked LaForge and built the weapon. First off, if the Borg continued on their spree in the Alpha Quadrant, they would get the tech for ther weapon, and they would use it. Second, if 60+ billion beings are dying, and there is little hope to save the sitaution, Picard had no choice but to build and use it. What is the more important ethic, watch your culture turn to ashes, or take the chance you can stop the destruction by a new weapon? I know what Bacco thought, and any other commander would use the same thing, Why is the Doomsday Device such a great episode in the original series? Same issue is brought up.

Third, you better believe the Romulans at this point would be arming ships with it, so would the Klingons if they had the tech. The cat would be out of the bag at this point by somebody who had the tech. This is a war of extermination right? And the Borg is the proverbial cat, and the Allies are the proverbial mice, correct?

It is great to see the author show the superiority of the Starfleet ethic here, but he takes too far, and beyond reality in Picard changing his mind to build it. In fact, this weakness is in all three books when everyone at Starfleet Command refused Seven's suggestion to build it. And what about the ubiqitous Section 31? They would just sit idly by while a former Borg says this is your best weapon? They inflicted the Founders with a virus, what's the difference?

But, these are somewhat minor quibbles about a great series, and overall it was a great, great read.
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Old December 4 2008, 09:44 PM   #273
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Maybe in the future someone catches Section 31 so they can't attempt genocide anymore...

With so many species spread out all over, Earth may be a symbol, but since everyone was attacked in general, I can't imagine an uprising in general. Despite the anger, the fear etc., I think everyone knew who the *present* Borg are, and they were the enemy and the literal antagonists. I don't think that the war-weary will go vs. the humans or anyone else just because of the origins of the Borg thousands of years ago.

And for a while... I'm only half way through... but there is a lot (at least on my end ) of mourning in store... and given all the wars, people must be at a point know where they will *have* to grieve... I'd imagine that will surpass the need for revenge, and by the time its done, survival/rebuilding will kinda take over... maybe...
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Old December 4 2008, 09:51 PM   #274
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Rowan Sjet wrote: View Post
I'll just echo what other people have already said. This really is the Lord of the Rings of TrekLit. Superb work Mr Mack (and I loved the T:TSCC reference! )
Hey if Destiny is the Lord of the Rings of Trek does that make Greater Than the Sum The Hobbit of Trek?
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Old December 4 2008, 10:12 PM   #275
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Marie1 wrote: View Post
... and given all the wars, people must be at a point know where they will *have* to grieve... I'd imagine that will surpass the need for revenge, and by the time its done, survival/rebuilding will kinda take over... maybe...
Oh, definitely. As I said above, people are going to be far too busy rebuilding to have the luxury of starting wars or terrorist attacks or anything. Remember the World Wars? The German people were quite bitter about their defeat and the harsh reparations imposed on them, but they didn't lash out again for another couple of decades, until the Nazis had seized onto that anger and built it up into a powerful political movement -- and also until Germany's economy had been rebuilt enough that they could afford to engage in military aggression. But after they were defeated again in WWII, they didn't have the same simmering buildup to vengeance, because this time the victors treated them well and helped them rebuild, thus defusing any anger.

It's a cinch that the Federation under Bacco is going to treat its neighbors as well as possible and do everything it can to help them rebuild. So by the time they're recovered enough to have the option of going to war with anybody, they probably won't be intensely vengeful toward the UFP. Even if the human origins of the Borg did become generally known or believed, which is unlikely.


Hartzilla2007 wrote: View Post
Hey if Destiny is the Lord of the Rings of Trek does that make Greater Than the Sum The Hobbit of Trek?
It's been suggested before, and it's a comparison I'm flattered by. And it works; GTTS does have a quest and a dragon in it.
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Old December 5 2008, 03:26 AM   #276
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Inoculative/recuperative therapy has its strengths, for nations as for individual people. I'll be very interested to see how much success Nan Bacco has, and what might pop up out of the woodwork to complicate or sabotage her efforts.

Pushing for Articles II, I still am.
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Old December 5 2008, 03:42 AM   #277
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Christopher wrote: View Post
It's a cinch that the Federation under Bacco is going to treat its neighbors as well as possible and do everything it can to help them rebuild. So by the time they're recovered enough to have the option of going to war with anybody, they probably won't be intensely vengeful toward the UFP.
I imagine the Jellico Plan; just as George Marshall formulated the Marshall Plan to rebuild Europe and turn enemies into long-term allies, maybe it's going to take someone like Edward Jellico to marshall the resources and rebuild the quadrant, not to remake the galaxy in the Federation's image, but because it's the right thing to do.

I'm throwing that out as a possibility, riffing on Christopher's idea; I don't actually know what's going to happen in A Singular Destiny and beyond.
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Old December 6 2008, 04:07 AM   #278
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

This has been the best trilogy I have read and some of the best Star Trek books written as well. The Borg are truly a fearsome force in this trilogy and it's great to see them used that way finally.

I don't understand how the Borg have had to rely on their transwarp hubs to traverse the galaxy. I thought their ships were able to travel at transwarp without the hubs (VOY ep "Dark Frontier")?

The origin of the Borg is close to what I was thinking, just that my vision didn't involve time travel. It was done extraordinarily well though and I have no problem with it.

I read this trilogy in the span of a week, and each book was over 400 pages. I just couldn't put them down!
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Old December 6 2008, 05:15 AM   #279
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Braxton wrote: View Post
I don't understand how the Borg have had to rely on their transwarp hubs to traverse the galaxy. I thought their ships were able to travel at transwarp without the hubs (VOY ep "Dark Frontier")?
The way I figure it is, the transwarp coil seen in DF let them access the transwarp conduits that are spread across the galaxy. A transwarp hub is a place where the conduits converge, and destroying the hub collapsed the conduits connected to it.
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Old December 6 2008, 03:39 PM   #280
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Marie1 wrote: View Post
Maybe in the future someone catches Section 31 so they can't attempt genocide anymore...
They are finally brought to justice by the 25th century.

http://startrek.wikia.com/wiki/Section_31#25th_Century

The existence and activities of Section 31 were exposed to the general public by the early 25th century and its agents brought to justice for their crimes. The public release of Section 31's files and records ended over 300 years of the bureau's illegal and unsanctioned black-ops and infiltration programs. (The Good That Men Do)
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Old December 6 2008, 04:01 PM   #281
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

ronny wrote: View Post
The Borg have been vanquished.
Well, unless their mirror universe counterparts ever happen to crossover to this universe
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Old December 6 2008, 05:31 PM   #282
Braxton
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Christopher wrote: View Post
Braxton wrote: View Post
I don't understand how the Borg have had to rely on their transwarp hubs to traverse the galaxy. I thought their ships were able to travel at transwarp without the hubs (VOY ep "Dark Frontier")?
The way I figure it is, the transwarp coil seen in DF let them access the transwarp conduits that are spread across the galaxy. A transwarp hub is a place where the conduits converge, and destroying the hub collapsed the conduits connected to it.
But Voyager didn't have a coil in "Endgame" IIRC. Sorry, I guess I'm being too analytical about this.

The Borg are gone so now we turn to new threats or old threats? The Tholians seem to be pretty pissed at what the Federation managed to pull off so maybe they'll be featured more prominently going forward? We don't really know much about them right?
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Old December 6 2008, 05:37 PM   #283
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Maybe Deanna is going to have a borg baby?
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Old December 6 2008, 06:25 PM   #284
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Braxton wrote: View Post
The Borg are gone so now we turn to new threats or old threats?
Yes.
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Old December 6 2008, 07:10 PM   #285
Marie1
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Stephen! wrote: View Post
ronny wrote: View Post
The Borg have been vanquished.
Well, unless their mirror universe counterparts ever happen to crossover to this universe


Thats true! Maybe...

Maybe they (and us) can just get help again? Then kick them back to their own universe...
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