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View Poll Results: Grade Lost Souls
Excellent 130 72.22%
Above Average 35 19.44%
Average 12 6.67%
Below Average 1 0.56%
Poor 2 1.11%
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Old December 4 2008, 01:00 AM   #256
Silversmok3
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Romulan_spy wrote: View Post
I still don't see how Earth is responsible for the creation of the Borg. Humans did not create the Borg on purpose. It is the Caeliar Sedin who was responsible for creating the Borg. The MACOS were victims just like any other drone. And the MACOS had every right to try to escape the Caeliar. They could not have known that their escape plan would backfire, sending the Caeliar ship back in time where they would become the first drones of an unstoppable enemy that would almost destroy the Federation thousands of years later.
You're right,Earth wasn't wholly responsible for creating the Borg.

Catch is,we can't prove that to anyone.If we reveal the events to aliens who've lost entire worlds to the Borg,they're gonna have some questions about the specifics.

Point blank,they'll want to know why their planet died.And a statement that we were victims too,that it was all an accident by one Caeliar that caused the genocide of billions is gonna fly like a bar of latinum.

What'll really charge their disruptors is that the Caeliar being 'gone',the disposition of Sedin cannot be established.And if my homeworld got vaporized ,I'd like to see justice served to the culprits.

(Yes,I do realize Sedin was dealt with by the Caeliar,but Starfleet wasn't privy to the process)
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Old December 4 2008, 01:05 AM   #257
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Humans may have been instrumental in the creation of the collective, but they were also instrumental in its end. Hopefully that would help ease the anger from some of the other races.
But realistically I am sure it won't, as the end of the borg doesn't do anything to bring back loved ones or to replace lost worlds.
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Old December 4 2008, 01:53 AM   #258
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

You do have a good point about humanity being instrumental in the end of the Borg, I really do think that that could help calm some upset people down.

You we keep debating whether this will all lead to a war, but I realized that there could actually be just as much of a chance of the oposite happening. Perhaps as things start to settle down and people really focus on rebuilding maybe they will actually start helping each other, and sharring resources. IMO given how positive things tend to be (most of the time) in the Star Trek universe, I'm really thinking that perhaps this will actually be the more likely outcome. The battle alone brought alot of different species together, so how do we know that they won't stay together in order to rebuild?
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Old December 4 2008, 02:32 AM   #259
Allyn Gibson
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Humans were at the root of the creation of the Borg. There was a singular moment where humans could have chose to die and the Borg never been born.
I read Lost Souls a lot differently than you did, I think.

Had the MACOs agreed to join with the Caeliar in a planned way, as was suggested to them (and that the MACOs rejected), the situation would have been better -- and not as tragic. Circumstances would have been more controlled.

But because the MACOs waited -- and they had their reasons, from simple pride to the same feelings of resentment that the Columbia survivors in Mere Mortals felt -- circumstances were different. There was nothing planned in what happened. The Caeliar had already been perverted. They had become primal, reason had been lost.

I read the scene in Lost Souls as a sign that the last two Columbia survivors were the first victims of the Borg, not the first Borg themselves.
The Borg Queen was human.
Except... she wasn't.

I think it was "Dark Frontier" that said that the Borg Queen was Species 14 or 16 or something like that. If the Borg Queen came into existence after the Borg began numbering the species they encountered, it's a fair bet that the Borg Queen wasn't modelled on Kiona Thayer.

Yes, in Before Dishonor the Borg Queen inhabited Kathryn Janeway's body as a vessel, but as we know, the Borg Queen can make itself felt anywhere within the Collective.
It was human captains-- Janeway and Picard-- that had a chances to wipe out the Borg and didn't.
On the other hand, Janeway herself precipitated the events of Destiny. (See "Endgame.")
And when it all came to a end, it was humans that allowed the collective to be evolved by another human into a superior form of life, and escape prosecution and punishment for their actions.
I'm not at all sure how you would "prosecute" or "punish" a force of nature. You might as well punish a hurricane for destroying a city, an avalanche for destroying a ski lodge.
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Old December 4 2008, 02:42 AM   #260
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Silversmok3 wrote: View Post
You're right,Earth wasn't wholly responsible for creating the Borg.

Catch is,we can't prove that to anyone.If we reveal the events to aliens who've lost entire worlds to the Borg,they're gonna have some questions about the specifics.
I'm going to repeat myself, just because I can.

As I wrote just a few days ago, there's a heaping big difference between what Picard, Riker, and Dax know about the origins of the Borg and what the trio can prove.

They don't have any proof that what Hernandez told them about the relationship between the Borg and the Caeliar is true.

It's a hypothesis for which they can't get any evidence, because the Caeliar destroyed it all when they "assimilated" the Borg.

In fact, the Borg themselves provided the evidence that it's not true. If humans were instrumental in the creation of the Borg, why does humanity have a species designation in the four digits? Why wouldn't they be species 0 or 1?

I'm not arguing that what we're told in Lost Souls is wrong. I don't want any misunderstandings on that point. What I am arguing is that there is absolutely no way for anyone to prove that humans played a critical role in the genesis of the Borg because they don't have any evidence to prove it with.

Maybe there's a race out there that's trigger happy and itching for a fight, and they're going to take it out on Earth because it's handy. If they do, rumors of humanity's involvement with the Borg's creation is just a pretext; the reality is, they probably just want to fight.
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Old December 4 2008, 02:48 AM   #261
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I read Lost Souls a lot differently than you did, I think.

Had the MACOs agreed to join with the Caeliar in a planned way, as was suggested to them (and that the MACOs rejected), the situation would have been better -- and not as tragic. Circumstances would have been more controlled.

But because the MACOs waited -- and they had their reasons, from simple pride to the same feelings of resentment that the Columbia survivors in Mere Mortals felt -- circumstances were different. There was nothing planned in what happened. The Caeliar had already been perverted. They had become primal, reason had been lost.

I read the scene in Lost Souls as a sign that the last two Columbia survivors were the first victims of the Borg, not the first Borg themselves.
If you look at it from the POV of an attacked race, it's humanity's fault for the survivors not letting themselves die. They went back and sought out the Caeliar's help to survive, had they just allowed themselves to die or killed themselves, no Borg.

As for the Caeliar fusion process, I think the Mantillis (sp) fusion was doomed period. The only reason Erika's worked was because it was more controled and it wasn't for the purpose of using her as a living duracell.
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Old December 4 2008, 03:01 AM   #262
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
If you look at it from the POV of an attacked race, it's humanity's fault for the survivors not letting themselves die. They went back and sought out the Caeliar's help to survive, had they just allowed themselves to die or killed themselves, no Borg.
Let me ask you this.

You know this because you're outside of the book, and you read the book, and it told you this. Because you, as a reader, are omniscent to events inside the book.

Who, inside the book, knows this?

Picard doesn't know this. Riker doesn't know this. Dax doesn't know this. I'm not even sure that Hernandez knows this. She knows that the Borg are degraded Caeliar, because the Borg operate on a mental frequency she can "hear." But does she know anything else?

I understand what you're saying. Honestly, I do. But you're assumed an omniscence and knowledge for characters inside the Star Trek fictional construct that simply cannot be justified.
As for the Caeliar fusion process, I think the Mantillis (sp) fusion was doomed period. The only reason Erika's worked was because it was more controled and it wasn't for the purpose of using her as a living duracell.
As I said, I think the "living Duracell" might have worked, had it been done when the Caeliar raised the issue.

I'm not saying it would have worked; it's entirely possible that it would have turned out just like the failed merger in Mere Mortals. The one difference is that the Caeliar would have been a consciousness guiding the catoms and the merger with the Mantilis survivors, while Inyx simply offered the dying woman catoms without the mental guidance. So, I think there was a better chance of it working initially.

On the flipside, why the merger went badly when it happened is simple -- survival. The Caeliar were dying. They had gone insane. They were primal. At that point, it was pure Darwinian "survival of the fittest." At that point, there was no chance of it going well. The Caeliar were too far gone.
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Old December 4 2008, 03:23 AM   #263
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
If humans were instrumental in the creation of the Borg, why does humanity have a species designation in the four digits? Why wouldn't they be species 0 or 1?
Maybe the Borg simply forgot their own origin?

Maybe there's a race out there that's trigger happy and itching for a fight, and they're going to take it out on Earth because it's handy. If they do, rumors of humanity's involvement with the Borg's creation is just a pretext; the reality is, they probably just want to fight.
Guess which race *I* think that could be.

And I just thought of something else: The families of the specific humans that were the first Borg. I dearly hope they never find out what happened. (Not because I think anyone would go *after* them, but they might not be able to deal with the guilt.)
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Old December 4 2008, 03:33 AM   #264
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
And I just thought of something else: The families of the specific humans that were the first Borg. I dearly hope they never find out what happened. (Not because I think anyone would go *after* them, but they might not be able to deal with the guilt.)
Are you suggesting that they should feel some sort of shame akin to Original Sin because of what their ancestors or relations of 300 years past might have done or created? That's nonsense. My ancestors may have been dicks to the Native Americans, but I don't lose sleep over it. I can say that what some English colonists did 300 years ago to the indigenous population was wrong, but I don't feel guilty about it. The sins of the past should stay in the past.
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Old December 4 2008, 03:39 AM   #265
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
And I just thought of something else: The families of the specific humans that were the first Borg. I dearly hope they never find out what happened. (Not because I think anyone would go *after* them, but they might not be able to deal with the guilt.)
Are you suggesting that they should feel some sort of shame akin to Original Sin because of what their ancestors or relations of 300 years past might have done or created? That's nonsense. My ancestors may have been dicks to the Native Americans, but I don't lose sleep over it. I can say that what some English colonists did 300 years ago to the indigenous population was wrong, but I don't feel guilty about it. The sins of the past should stay in the past.
I'm not saying they *should* feel shame, but they just might anyway.

I mean, how do you think the parents of somebody like this feel?

Agreed, though, in that for the moment I totally forgot that the immediate parents of the first Borg humans would be long dead by the 24th century anyway.

As for the 'original sin' bit...there is real world precedence. I mean, how else would you explain this?
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Old December 4 2008, 04:43 AM   #266
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Allyn Gibson wrote: View Post
As I wrote just a few days ago, there's a heaping big difference between what Picard, Riker, and Dax know about the origins of the Borg and what the trio can prove.

They don't have any proof that what Hernandez told them about the relationship between the Borg and the Caeliar is true.

It's a hypothesis for which they can't get any evidence, because the Caeliar destroyed it all when they "assimilated" the Borg.

In fact, the Borg themselves provided the evidence that it's not true. If humans were instrumental in the creation of the Borg, why does humanity have a species designation in the four digits? Why wouldn't they be species 0 or 1?
Because the Borg forgot their own origins. They didn't know they came from humans, so when they encountered humans later, they thought it was a new species.

Which just underlines your point about the total lack of proof for this notion. You're right that nobody's going to launch a war or terrorist campaign against humanity in retaliation for what the Borg did, because there's no way anyone's ever really going to know for a fact that this is how the Borg came to be. At most, it might be some cockamamie conspiracy theory a few nuts buy into, and that's only if the idea gets out in the first place. And I doubt it will, since only a few Starfleet captains and maybe their superiors are aware of it at all.

Besides, who would believe it? That a race that's been terrorizing the galaxy from the Delta Quadrant for thousands of years actually descended from a human starship crew that lived less than two centuries before but got flung across time and space? Your average citizen of your average planet probably isn't even going to believe such things are possible. Most people in the galaxy wouldn't have the routine experience with cutting-edge physics and cosmological weirdness that Starfleet officers do, and there's probably a lot of stuff they simply wouldn't believe was real. Time travel? Inverted causality? Godlike superbeings? Right, tell me another one.

At most, what people at large will be aware of is that the Caeliar claimed the Borg as a degenerate offshoot of themselves, and then took both the Borg and themselves out of the picture. So anyone who's looking for someone to blame will blame the Caeliar, who are conveniently absent.
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Old December 4 2008, 05:17 AM   #267
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I just finished reading Lost Souls minutes ago and I must say this trilogy as a whole is the best Star Trek story I have ever read. I only wish I could have seen more of the characters such as those left on DS9 and the Defiant, and Voyager but I understand why they weren't featured in this story. Simply, thanks!
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Old December 4 2008, 10:43 AM   #268
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
Romulan_spy wrote: View Post
I still don't see how Earth is responsible for the creation of the Borg. Humans did not create the Borg on purpose. It is the Caeliar Sedin who was responsible for creating the Borg. The MACOS were victims just like any other drone. And the MACOS had every right to try to escape the Caeliar. They could not have known that their escape plan would backfire, sending the Caeliar ship back in time where they would become the first drones of an unstoppable enemy that would almost destroy the Federation thousands of years later.
It doesn't matter whether or not the MACOS were in teh right, or that the merging that lead to the Borg was an attempt to survive. All that matters, to the whips that whip the paranoid, frightened, masses of refugees and and survivors, is that humans were at the root of the creation of the Borg. There was a singular moment where humans could have chose to die and the Borg never been born. The Borg Queen was human. It was human captains-- Janeway and Picard-- that had a chances to wipe out the Borg and didn't. And when it all came to a end, it was humans that allowed the collective to be evolved by another human into a superior form of life, and escape prosecuetion and punishment for their actions.


Never let facts and get in the way of a good game of blame, or underestimate frothing, paniced, angry masses looking to punish someone for the cause of their suffering.

I agree. Thanks to my bad cold I still haven`t finished the book but curious as I am, I peeked ahead. If what I have seen is correct, Earth was spared a Borg attack at pretty much one minute before it would have happened while other Federation worlds suffered very badly.

Add that to what you just described and you have more fuel for people who are already irrational.
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Old December 4 2008, 11:07 AM   #269
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Baerbel Haddrell wrote: View Post
I agree. Thanks to my bad cold I still haven`t finished the book but curious as I am, I peeked ahead. If what I have seen is correct, Earth was spared a Borg attack at pretty much one minute before it would have happened while other Federation worlds suffered very badly.

Add that to what you just described and you have more fuel for people who are already irrational.
Hmm. Did New York resent D.C. for not having suffered as bad of an attack on 9/11 as they did? Did either of them resent Chicago or Los Angeles for suffering no attacks at all?

I see no reason for the other Federation worlds to resent Earth for not suffering attack. It came to within a hair's breadth of suffering an attack, too, and, furthermore, Earth is their capital world, too, just like the District of Columbia is as much Ohio's capital as it is New York's.
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Old December 4 2008, 01:01 PM   #270
Baerbel Haddrell
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

If the secret that a combination of Caeliar and humans resulted in the birth of the Borg will indeed never be out in the public domain as some people think, then I agree with you: The fact that Earth was spared at the last moment won`t cause any resentment.

But if the secret will be out one day then the irrational and paranoid will wonder, was it really a fortunate accident that Earth was spared?
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