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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade Lost Souls
Excellent 130 72.22%
Above Average 35 19.44%
Average 12 6.67%
Below Average 1 0.56%
Poor 2 1.11%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 29 2008, 05:21 PM   #166
Allyn Gibson
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Christopher wrote: View Post
No, it's not a very flattering portrayal of the man. But it's human and it's believable. Even Jean-Luc Picard can't be heroic all the time. We all have lapses and failures. But Picard did come through at the end by retracting his misguided order. No, he didn't find the key to saving the day, but he did choose not to make it worse -- and, more importantly to his character arc here, he saved his soul.
While it's fine to say that Picard "saved his soul," we as readers aren't privy to that, as Picard's epiphany occurs off-stage. Geordi has his throwdown with Picard, then later Worf tells Geordi that the order was rescinded, but we're never shown the moment where the lightbulb goes off in Picard's head. Geordi starting Picard down that path to self-realization wasn't quite enough for me. I'd have liked to see Picard fix the fractured demons of his psyche on the page, rather than be told about it after the fact. Delve into his mind, reboot his personality if need be (I thought that's why we kept going to the Ressikan flute, with that lifetime of memories being used to "reboot" Picard's personality), and fix Picard. As it's presented in Lost Souls, to my thinking, Picard's emotional growth was arbitrary rather than "human and believable." *shrug*
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Old November 29 2008, 06:07 PM   #167
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

As far as Picards reaction (and breakdown),I can hardly fault him for cracking under the stress of an enemy invasion of his home space.

I doubt I'd be calm and cool either if an army decided to invade Chicago,doubly so if I was that enemy's POW. And even in that there's a chance to resist.I'm pretty shure no insurgency campeign would last long against Borg occupation.

To shift gears,I believe the Mantilis situation was similarly bleak.Talk about screwed....
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Old November 29 2008, 10:58 PM   #168
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I enjoyed the trilogy as a whole. A couple issues though: A) it was clear in the first book that the Caeliar would come to the rescue and just make the Borg go away (either through displacement or other means). B) can someone explain why the first two borg suddenly had nanotubules? There could have been a chapter explaining why, after they were changed they suddenly had this particular adaption. It just seemed like an unexplained leap for me.
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Old November 30 2008, 12:55 AM   #169
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Picard cracked? I have not gotten that far to read that.
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Old November 30 2008, 04:45 AM   #170
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

fennrysha wrote: View Post
B) can someone explain why the first two borg suddenly had nanotubules? There could have been a chapter explaining why, after they were changed they suddenly had this particular adaption. It just seemed like an unexplained leap for me.
I assume this is because they had to have some way to deliver the catoms/nanites, and this way was probably as efficient as any other.
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Old November 30 2008, 06:44 AM   #171
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Geek question for someone who hasn't read the entire trilogy: what were the Sheliak, Tzenkethi, Miradorn, Jarada, Tamarians, or Dominion doing during the Borg invasion?
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Old November 30 2008, 03:45 PM   #172
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Indirectly, it would seem that the Xindi were responsible for the creation of the Borg. If the Xindi hadn't attacked earth, Archer wouldn't have needed MACOs onboard Enterprise, and later recommending that Hernandez have some MACOs assigned to Columbia. So the events that led to MACOs becoming the first Borg would never happen.

But then again, since the attack on Earth apparently never happened in the original timelime, the Borg probably shouldn't have existed in the first place .......
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Old November 30 2008, 04:14 PM   #173
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Arpy wrote: View Post
Geek question for someone who hasn't read the entire trilogy: what were the Sheliak, Tzenkethi, Miradorn, Jarada, Tamarians, or Dominion doing during the Borg invasion?
The Dominion would've been totally unaffected, since the Gamma Quadrant wasn't invaded. As for the others you mention, I know the Tzenkethi are mentioned in the trilogy and subsequent works, but I don't recall references to any of the other specific civilizations you mention. But a number of other, more prominent civilizations do play a role in Destiny and some of what follows.
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Old November 30 2008, 04:46 PM   #174
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Stephen! wrote: View Post
Indirectly, it would seem that the Xindi were responsible for the creation of the Borg. If the Xindi hadn't attacked earth, Archer wouldn't have needed MACOs onboard Enterprise, and later recommending that Hernandez have some MACOs assigned to Columbia. So the events that led to MACOs becoming the first Borg would never happen.

But then again, since the attack on Earth apparently never happened in the original timelime, the Borg probably shouldn't have existed in the first place .......
Who says there was an original timeline? The attack on Earth, the events of ST:FC, were a predestination paradox. They *always* happened. Certainly can't prove otherwise, can we?
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Old November 30 2008, 05:06 PM   #175
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Stephen! wrote: View Post
Indirectly, it would seem that the Xindi were responsible for the creation of the Borg. If the Xindi hadn't attacked earth, Archer wouldn't have needed MACOs onboard Enterprise, and later recommending that Hernandez have some MACOs assigned to Columbia. So the events that led to MACOs becoming the first Borg would never happen...
Actually,no.

No disrespect,but Columbia's mission before its incapacitation was convoy escort.There woulda been MACO's on that ship anyway,Xindi or timeline to pot.

But your post does remind me of something. The NX-02 Columbia now ranks above Homer's Odesseus as the most-B.S.-trialsome- struggle to get home story in human history .

Scratch that,galacic history.

Kinda humbling to think this all started with a broken starship .
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Old November 30 2008, 05:44 PM   #176
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Stephen! wrote: View Post
Indirectly, it would seem that the Xindi were responsible for the creation of the Borg. If the Xindi hadn't attacked earth, Archer wouldn't have needed MACOs onboard Enterprise, and later recommending that Hernandez have some MACOs assigned to Columbia. So the events that led to MACOs becoming the first Borg would never happen.

But then again, since the attack on Earth apparently never happened in the original timelime, the Borg probably shouldn't have existed in the first place .......
IIRC, the MACOs got assigned aboard Enterprise because their mission was shifting from exploratory to military. But presumably the attacks along the Romulan frontier would still have occurred, Xindi or no, and that could have been cause enough to assign MACOs to all UESPA ships.
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Old November 30 2008, 05:52 PM   #177
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

What a rush! I don't think I've been that sucked into a Trek novel series since Mission Gamma. David, thanks for writing such a brilliant trilogy. Were I a faster reader I'd have done it all in one sitting, but when I wasn't sleeping or eating, I couldn't put it down.

A couple of thoughts -- now that we have a slipstream drive that's been proven stable in Starfleet's hands, how will this be followed up on in future novels? Will it remain a Vesta-class only technology for the time being, or will we start seeing other ships retrofitted as well? President Bacco did say that she planned to have the Luna-class missions continue, so are there any plans to extend even beyond that now that the technology is there (once the fleet is rebuilt and disaster cleanup is under control, of course)?

Speaking of the fleet being rebuilt, I don't remember Destiny quantifying exactly what the Starfleet toll was, with regard to ships and crew lost, though we did get to see a number of scenes where individual ships and crews made the ultimate sacrifice. What kind of scale are we talking about (compared to, say, Wolf 359 or The Dominion War), or was this intentionally left vague for a future book to address? Or did I just miss it?
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Old November 30 2008, 06:59 PM   #178
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Stephen! wrote: View Post
But then again, since the attack on Earth apparently never happened in the original timelime, the Borg probably shouldn't have existed in the first place .......
It may be that the Borg are simply an evolutionary endpoint and that, if that evolutionary niche isn't filled, then someone else will evolve to fill it. It's possible that, in the post-Enterprise iteration of the timeline this is the origin of the Borg, while in past and future iterations the Borg origin is different. Or, to borrow an Asimovian concept, there's a "line of maximum probability," and certain events are fated to happen, barring massive changes to the timeline.

There's also the possibility that the degredation of the Caeliar of Mantilis is a red herring. In this view, the Borg predated 4500 BCE (Probe, Vendetta, and New Worlds, New Civilizations all make references to Borg incidents hundreds of thousands, even millions, of years in the past, for example). The encounter between the degraded Caeliar, which had already taken on Borg-like qualities, and the Borg-proper may have made the Borg far more dangerous than they had been previously.

On the third hand, there's also the existence of the Borg in the Mirror Universe, per Greg Cox's novel, to consider. Would the Borg share the same origin in the Mirror Universe that they do in the "normal" universe? Would the Caeliar allow the morally-suspect crew of the Mirror Columbia to even get close to Erigol? As the Borg exist in the Mirror Universe, their origins may differ.

Do I think any of these are right? Not really; I just like spitballing ideas.
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Old November 30 2008, 08:24 PM   #179
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Pudding wrote: View Post
now that we have a slipstream drive that's been proven stable in Starfleet's hands, how will this be followed up on in future novels?
It will be followed up on in future novels. To find out how, you'll just have to read 'em.


Speaking of the fleet being rebuilt, I don't remember Destiny quantifying exactly what the Starfleet toll was, with regard to ships and crew lost, though we did get to see a number of scenes where individual ships and crews made the ultimate sacrifice. What kind of scale are we talking about (compared to, say, Wolf 359 or The Dominion War), or was this intentionally left vague for a future book to address? Or did I just miss it?
The draft I have on my hard drive that Dave sent me to look at (I don't actually have the book yet) has President Bacco saying that more than forty percent of Starfleet was destroyed.
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Old November 30 2008, 08:26 PM   #180
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

That is what it said.
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