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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade Lost Souls
Excellent 130 72.22%
Above Average 35 19.44%
Average 12 6.67%
Below Average 1 0.56%
Poor 2 1.11%
Voters: 180. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 28 2008, 08:35 PM   #151
JeremyW
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

KRAD wrote: View Post
JeremyW wrote: View Post
My thoughts were this at the end: there's no more?!
Sure there is: A Singular Destiny, Over a Torrent Sea, Full Circle, Losing the Peace.......
Keith, are you sure you're not somehow a Caeliar yourself and can tune your catoms to what I write? I mentioned something similar in my forthcoming review. Here's an excerpt.

********************
I was like, there’s no more?! Considering I’m about to take a two year leave of absence from the world and go serve a mission, it’s unlikely that I’ll get to read Over A Torrent Sea (I always want to say Bridge Over A Torrent Sea), Full Circle or Losing The Peace, I leave knowing that what I get to come back to is going to be amazing. (Yes, I’m probably going to get to read A Singular Destiny)
**************************
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Old November 28 2008, 09:05 PM   #152
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I GUESS I can cut some Picard some slack, seeing that he did save the universe recently .

I went back and read the Picard scenes in the book again. It isn't that they are bad or out of character for his frame of mind. I think what really bothered me about it in the end is that he basically contributed nothing. Actually he hindered the mission. He may as well not have even been there, he could have just taken a long nap and let Worf command. I'm not saying that Picard always has to be the one to save the day, but he should always be a major player, especially in this situation. He only formulated one real plan, and let Geordi of all people change his mind about it, so that doesn't count. Crying on the holodeck during a full on Borg invasion is so pathetic. He is supposed to be a Starfleet captain and put his personal feelings on the backburner, especially in a HUGE crisis like this. So yeah, this really did bug me (though it was still well written).

Also, why is Ezri so respectful of Picard at the end? Based on his actions in this book she should think his reputation is overrated and basically think that he should retire.
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Old November 28 2008, 09:08 PM   #153
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Concerning Picard, I have been wondering to what extend the hunger might have still been influencing him. Perhaps that might account for his obsession since FC with destroying the Borg, and being in close proximity to 7000 cubes might explain why he was willing to abandon his principles and entertain the idea of the thalaron weapon. Maybe as the hunger drives the borg to assimilate it was having an impact on Picard to destroy.
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Old November 28 2008, 09:16 PM   #154
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

casey wrote: View Post
Concerning Picard, I have been wondering to what extend the hunger might have still been influencing him. Perhaps that might account for his obsession since FC with destroying the Borg, and being in close proximity to 7000 cubes might explain why he was willing to abandon his principles and entertain the idea of the thalaron weapon. Maybe as the hunger drives the borg to assimilate it was having an impact on Picard to destroy.
Considering the fact that the hunger spoken of was mixed with human aggression, what you say would make perfect sense. After all, the Collective was just an extension of humanity's dark shadow, and not at all unreasonable to think in such terms.
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Old November 28 2008, 10:08 PM   #155
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

destro wrote: View Post
He is supposed to be a Starfleet captain and put his personal feelings on the backburner, especially in a HUGE crisis like this. So yeah, this really did bug me (though it was still well written).
If it were any threat other than the Borg, that's exactly what he would've done. It's hard to understand just how horrific his ordeal as Locutus was. The Borg broke him. They violated him, enslaved him, made him into a tool for killing thousands of his own people. There's no way he could ever entirely get over such a deep psychological wound. It would be two-dimensional writing to portray Picard as someone who would react exactly the same way to a huge invasion by the Borg as he would to any other danger. Yes, what you describe is what he's "supposed to be," but the Borg tore him apart, shattered his sense of identity, and though he put himself together again, there's still a big Locutus-shaped crack remaining. So it's not as easy to be who he's supposed to be when the Borg are hammering at that weak spot in his psyche. Especially when he's just committed to starting a family, something that's bound to throw his sense of identity into flux.

That was the whole point of Picard's behavior in this trilogy. Yes, it was drastically out of character for him, but there was a very good reason why it was. He was failing to behave the way Jean-Luc Picard would ideally behave, and that was exactly the problem he had to resolve. And he needed his friends and fellow officers to help him do that.
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Old November 28 2008, 10:09 PM   #156
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

I finally got a copy in a Border's express today, so by the end of the weekend, I should be done. I can also click on all of the spoiler buttons.
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Old November 29 2008, 12:06 AM   #157
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Finished the book yesterday, great end to a fucking amazing trilogy. A big win and lose at the same time for the Federation. And all the revelations really make sense and correct some of what was bothering me about the Borg since the introduction of the Queen.
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Old November 29 2008, 01:29 AM   #158
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

When Dave's next book comes out, I want to see "Praise for the work of David Mack" on the first few pages, including this quote:

SeerSGB wrote: View Post
... a fucking amazing trilogy.
Just sayin'.
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Old November 29 2008, 01:48 AM   #159
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Well, I can accept that he cracked. Maybe I'm being too tough on the guy, I just kind of assumed that he had dealt more fully with these issues in First Contact and later in Resistance, Before Dishonor, Greater Than the Sum and the 1st two Destiny books.
I still would have liked to have seen him take a slightly more proactive role in what was going on, but it isn't a huge deal.

I am happy that this dark period of Picard's life seems to be over though.
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Old November 29 2008, 02:08 AM   #160
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

destro wrote: View Post
Well, I can accept that he cracked. Maybe I'm being too tough on the guy, I just kind of assumed that he had dealt more fully with these issues in First Contact and later in Resistance, Before Dishonor, Greater Than the Sum and the 1st two Destiny books.
I still would have liked to have seen him take a slightly more proactive role in what was going on, but it isn't a huge deal.

I am happy that this dark period of Picard's life seems to be over though.
I think what we get with Picard is a man who has just been pushed and pushed and pushed, and now that he's actually trying to move on with his life in a big way all hell rains down on not only him but the whole of everything he's worked for.

Picard's issue, even in the series, has been his tendency to internalize a lot of what's going on with him and his life. And eventually there's not room left, there's nothing left to do but say "I'm done, I can't do it anymore".
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Old November 29 2008, 07:24 AM   #161
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Christopher wrote: View Post
If it were any threat other than the Borg, that's exactly what he would've done. It's hard to understand just how horrific his ordeal as Locutus was. The Borg broke him. They violated him, enslaved him, made him into a tool for killing thousands of his own people. There's no way he could ever entirely get over such a deep psychological wound.
I would agree with this if not for the episode "I, Borg." Picard had his chance at revenge, at lashing out at the enemy that ravaged him and chose not to. He showed that he was a better man than that. I don't expect him to be a super hero but one of the defining characteristics of Picard is that he never betrays his core principles. The movies pushed that aside, so I suppose the novels are forced to follow suit, but I found it disappointing. I wanted to see him contribute to the solution somehow and instead he actively worked against it. Had anyone listened to him, the Borg would have won. That was my problem. He's not the kind of person to let events swirl around him and he do nothing and he shouldn't be the type of person who would let a race die just because they harmed him. He is better than that. Don't misunderstand, I really liked the books, this was just the sticking point I had with this one.
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Old November 29 2008, 08:19 AM   #162
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Well, this trilogy was just wonderful. I think it's a classic. Well done Mr. Mack. At several points in these books I would like, "I can't beleave that just happened." I read some of it at my aunts house on Thanksgiving, and I looked up from the page and said out loud in a hushed tone, "The Borg just destroyed Deneva." Which drew many looks from family members. I actually put the book down when the Borg where two minutes away from Vulcan. I was worried for all this planets, Andor, Vulcan, Qo'nos, I was afraid for them. And, the end was an amazing surprise.

Just a wonderful job, David, thank you.
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Old November 29 2008, 10:43 AM   #163
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Wow, awesome book. I just got it today and started reading it at about 7pm. I had it finished by 1am.

I might post a longer review later but I have to thank Mr. Mack for one scene in particular that I've been hoping for for a long time. It's the scene where President Bacco says (paraphrased): "I don't care what Picard has to do, he has my permission to do it. And he will be pardoned for it if it's really illegal." As a fan of 24, I've been wanting a president to say this to Jack Bauer for a long time. It was an excellent scene, a bit of common sense prevailing where no common sense has prevailed before.

I'm also curious as to why Seven's skull didn't cave in when her other implants disappeared.

The only aspect of the Borg as corrupted Celiar that didn't quite work for me was the involvement of humans in the process. Voyager said humans were designated Species 5618. But if two or three humans were the first drones, they should have been Species 2. I guess the Borg didn't start giving out Species designations right away.
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Old November 29 2008, 03:54 PM   #164
Christopher
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Quimby wrote: View Post
I would agree with this if not for the episode "I, Borg." Picard had his chance at revenge, at lashing out at the enemy that ravaged him and chose not to. He showed that he was a better man than that. I don't expect him to be a super hero but one of the defining characteristics of Picard is that he never betrays his core principles. The movies pushed that aside, so I suppose the novels are forced to follow suit, but I found it disappointing.
In "I, Borg," Picard was faced with only one Borg drone. The thing he feared was present, but to a limited, manageable degree that posed no immediate threat to himself, his crew, or his civilization. So he was able to damp down his initial, visceral fear response and keep it in check -- but just barely, and only because Guinan helped talk him out of it. In First Contact, he was faced with an ongoing invasion of his ship, his home, by his personal demons, so naturally that was more overwhelming, and his fear and rage toward the Borg reasserted themselves. Again, his initial impulse was to give into it, but again, he was talked out of it with help from Lily and his crew. In Destiny, he was faced with his greatest horror brought to life, a wholesale, unstoppable Borg onslaught against his entire civilization. Naturally that brought out his fears worse than ever, and once more, his initial impulse was to lash out and seek vengeance. And again, he was talked out of it by a member of his crew, Geordi this time.

So I don't see any inconsistency. His behavior in all three cases fits the same pattern: an initial fear/vengeance response eventually giving way to the decision to do the right thing once his friends remind him of what he stands for. The only difference is the magnitude of the threat, which would naturally affect the intensity of his response.


I wanted to see him contribute to the solution somehow and instead he actively worked against it. Had anyone listened to him, the Borg would have won. That was my problem. He's not the kind of person to let events swirl around him and he do nothing and he shouldn't be the type of person who would let a race die just because they harmed him. He is better than that.
Yes, he is better than that, almost always. But he's not a one-dimensional character. We all have our complexities and weaknesses, and the Borg are his greatest weakness, because they broke him. They're the one enemy that ever beat him, that ever broke his spirit -- except Gul Madred, and that was just for a moment. The Borg broke him effortlessly, left him totally helpless, made him murder thousands. That's not something he can get over completely. It's a weak spot that never fully healed, because you can't fully heal from such a horrific violation. The Borg are his Kryptonite, the one thing that can make him less than the man he usually is. And because of that, he wasn't himself here.

No, it's not a very flattering portrayal of the man. But it's human and it's believable. Even Jean-Luc Picard can't be heroic all the time. We all have lapses and failures. But Picard did come through at the end by retracting his misguided order. No, he didn't find the key to saving the day, but he did choose not to make it worse -- and, more importantly to his character arc here, he saved his soul.
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Old November 29 2008, 05:00 PM   #165
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Lost Souls - Discuss/Grade

Quimby wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
If it were any threat other than the Borg, that's exactly what he would've done. It's hard to understand just how horrific his ordeal as Locutus was. The Borg broke him. They violated him, enslaved him, made him into a tool for killing thousands of his own people. There's no way he could ever entirely get over such a deep psychological wound.
I would agree with this if not for the episode "I, Borg." Picard had his chance at revenge, at lashing out at the enemy that ravaged him and chose not to. He showed that he was a better man than that. I don't expect him to be a super hero but one of the defining characteristics of Picard is that he never betrays his core principles. The movies pushed that aside, so I suppose the novels are forced to follow suit, but I found it disappointing. I wanted to see him contribute to the solution somehow and instead he actively worked against it. Had anyone listened to him, the Borg would have won. That was my problem. He's not the kind of person to let events swirl around him and he do nothing and he shouldn't be the type of person who would let a race die just because they harmed him. He is better than that. Don't misunderstand, I really liked the books, this was just the sticking point I had with this one.
Well the thing with "I Borg" is that Picard was in charge the whole way, and he basically had the luxury of saying "I'm better than this". And even then, the hope was that Hugh would serve as a virus and spread individuality through the collective. *

In "Destiny" Picard's completely out of control, has been on the ass end of a ass kicking from the Borg repeatedly, and was completely helpless and out of control.






* -- In hindsight, I wonder how much of Picard's "lets pretend to be Locutus" moment was pretend and how much was Locutus slipping back through.
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