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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old November 25 2008, 04:25 PM   #91
Psion
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Re: How do Starships stop?

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Psion wrote: View Post
Cary, is there any reason the thrust or force applied over time can't be non-newtonian in impulse engines? That is, produced without tossing something out of a combustion chamber?
Because thrust itself is a newtonian action and cannot be applied without an equal and opposite reaction....
So, assuming the EmDrive actually works (and I have no interest in debating whether it does or not -- just assume for the purposes of argument that it does), you're claiming it doesn't apply force over time just because it doesn't expel reaction mass?
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Old November 25 2008, 07:32 PM   #92
Anticitizen
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Re: How do Starships stop?

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Captain Robert April wrote: View Post
The God Thing wrote: View Post

I'm looking at my copy of Star Trek: The Motion Picture - 14 Official Blueprints (Wallaby Books, 1980) right now and those particular features are completely unmarked in all three sheets that depict the NCC-1701 Refit's exterior.

TGT
Confirmed. Those features are unlabeled.
Hmmm... I'll have to go back and see if I can figure out what, then, I was thinking of. I'm sure I knew that's what they were waaaay back then. (In the first TMP E model I built, I even put "burn marks" trailing from those, because I'd read in something official that they were dockyard-maneuvering thrusters).

Still... suppose that I can't find whatever it is. What do you guys think that they are? And claiming "deuterium fill ports" is just silly... there's no possible engineering argument for a "fill port" to be designed like that, is there? I mean... that's not a "new magic technology," it's a basic design element which would be no different than what we have today. Most likely, a "fill port" would resemble, quite closely, what you have on your car's gas tank - a cover plate which can swing aside to reveal the "plumbing" underneath.
I'd go with 'sensor clusters'. They gotta put 'em somewhere...
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Old November 25 2008, 11:21 PM   #93
Ronald Held
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Re: How do Starships stop?

Over time I did not think of the impulse engines as Newtonian propulsion, even if the exhaust contributes a little to the thrust. Some novel called it I.M pulse for internally metered pulse engines.
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Old November 26 2008, 06:20 AM   #94
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Re: How do Starships stop?

I think using a fusion reaction to propel with either a mass-reduction device sounds the best idea.

What exactly was that gravitational fly-wheel mentioned earlier?


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Old November 27 2008, 03:35 AM   #95
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Re: How do Starships stop?

Psion wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Psion wrote: View Post
Cary, is there any reason the thrust or force applied over time can't be non-newtonian in impulse engines? That is, produced without tossing something out of a combustion chamber?
Because thrust itself is a newtonian action and cannot be applied without an equal and opposite reaction....
So, assuming the EmDrive actually works (and I have no interest in debating whether it does or not -- just assume for the purposes of argument that it does), you're claiming it doesn't apply force over time just because it doesn't expel reaction mass?
If it does apply force over time it has to have something to apply that force ON. I could buy something that interacts with and pushes against Earth's electromagnetic field, but but in order to apply force you need to have something to push on at least. Basically, no matter how strong you are, you can't life a rock if you're standing on it.
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Old November 27 2008, 04:56 AM   #96
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Re: How do Starships stop?

newtype_alpha wrote: View Post
Psion wrote: View Post
newtype_alpha wrote: View Post

Because thrust itself is a newtonian action and cannot be applied without an equal and opposite reaction....
So, assuming the EmDrive actually works (and I have no interest in debating whether it does or not -- just assume for the purposes of argument that it does), you're claiming it doesn't apply force over time just because it doesn't expel reaction mass?
If it does apply force over time it has to have something to apply that force ON. I could buy something that interacts with and pushes against Earth's electromagnetic field, but but in order to apply force you need to have something to push on at least. Basically, no matter how strong you are, you can't life a rock if you're standing on it.
I get you ... and that makes sense. But let's assume a mystery reaction. We don't know what we're acting against. We only know, when we push this button, that light comes on, the big box on the back of the ship starts buzzing, and the ship starts moving forward. Darned if we know how it's doing what it's doing, but the ship is definitely moving. Since we know the mass of the ship, can measure its change in velocity relative to something (otherwise we wouldn't know we were moving), and can measure the passage of time, don't we know the drive's force over time?

Which brings me full-circle back to the (misunderstanding?) that led me to question Cary in the first place on this issue: all we really know about impulse engines is that they exert a force on the ship that causes them to move. Even if the force is provided by super-science reactionless drive systems, they're still essentially impulse engines.

Mind you, I say all this while still being a proponent of the impulse-engines = refined fusion drive. I'm just a little fuzzy on why impulse-engines must involve expelling a reaction mass.
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Old November 27 2008, 07:08 AM   #97
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Re: How do Starships stop?

I know what i'm about to say is canon-heresy, but Impulse Engines see to be used differently in TOS than in the movies and later series.

In the Original Series, the Impulse Drive seems to be more of an auxiliary propulsion that gets the ship moving on simple newtonian physics if their magic warp drive fails.

They don't usually refer to the Impulse Engines when the Warp Drive is functioning, we get orders like "Sub-Light one half" in Friday's Child, or references to the Enterprise "warping out of orbit" in the Menagerie. It is my impression that the Warp Drive, at least as it was established in TOS was the starship's main propulsion and was used for sublight propulsion as well as interstellar travel.

This is all irrelevant now since the Impulse Engines were later retconned to be the ship's main propulsion at sublight speeds, but I don't think this was the original intent.

Since while we're rebooting the Enterprise and everything else anyway, I'd like to bring back this concept of the warp drive being able to handle sublight propulsion as well, and relegating archaic impulse engines to being used as an auxiliary, thus no longer need to figure out magical ways a Newtonian impulse engine can stop or reverse a starship's velocity without producing any forward thrust.
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Old November 27 2008, 09:24 AM   #98
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Re: How do Starships stop?

Sounds good. Indeed, "impulse engines" in TOS often sounded more like an alternate or auxiliary way to channel power to the propulsion devices, rather than being a category of propulsion devices themselves. Kirk would at times add the output of the impulse engines to that of the warp engines, the way a modern frigate captain might order the output of the cruising diesel engines to be added to that of the dashing turbine engines or vice versa. All that output goes to the same set of propellers, no matter how the combination of engines is chosen...

That naval analogy might be taken to hold throughout: an "engine" would be a power production system, be it a fusion-powered "impulse" engine or an antimatter-powered "warp" engine. The output of the engine would be channeled to a propulsion system, which could be either two sets of warp coils in two big outriggered nacelles, or two such big sets plus a smaller set at the aft rim of the saucer. A bit like main propellers and steering/trolling propellers on a modern ship.

Different ships from different eras would have different balances between these power and propulsion systems. One might even argue that only those ships with the intriguing blue domes or squares on the saucer aft rim have actual "impulse coils" which do this subspace mass reduction magic thing all on their own (NX-01, NCC-1701-A, B and D), while those ships without such domes (the TOS NCC-1701, perhaps NCC-1701-C and E) channel the output of their impulse engines into the big nacelles for generation of mass reduction fields for sublight propulsion, and perhaps for the occasional faster-than-light foray...

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Old November 27 2008, 09:28 AM   #99
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Re: How do Starships stop?

I always thought that the power from the Impulse Engines was mostly used to make all the "Electronic Stuff" INSIDE the ship operate...

..you know, like the computers and lights and such.

And they were only used for propulsion when the WARP ENGINES were off-line.
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Old November 27 2008, 09:01 PM   #100
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Re: How do Starships stop?

I thought that you could use the warp core to power the ship, but thought that normally the fusion reactors are used for life support, running the computers, etc.
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