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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old November 23 2008, 11:30 PM   #136
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
AlanC9 wrote: View Post
Again, only by our standards for promotion. In Napoleonic navies this sort of thing was more the rule than the exception; until you made post captain seniority didn't matter.
Not really comparable, though, as it would take only three promotions to reach captain in the Napoleonic period, instead of seven. And though the percentage of captains inservice then might not be much different from a modern service, many of these were on half pay without assignment, whereas today they would have left the service or retired.

We already know that Starfleet doesn't worry about time-in-grade the way we do today. Riker doesn't really damage his career by remaining as Picard's XO long after he could have been promoted, and nobody thinks there's anything all that weird about the alternate Picard staying a lieutenant forever.
Rather preposterous arrangements which give no thought to the larger personnel management implications. The more that model is avoided the better.

Instantly going from cadet to captain is still excessive, of course. But here's how Thomas Cochrane (the model for Jack Aubrey in O'Brian's novels) did it.

1793: Joins RN as midshipman, aged 17
1795: made acting lieutenant
1796: passes lieutenant exam
1800: appointed to command a sloop
1801: promoted to post-captain.

So that's eight years from midshipman to full captain.
The personnel practices of the Royal Navy c. 1800 are probably not a very good comparison for Starfleet. The navy's policies reflected the class system of the time, when social background and political connections mattered more than ability. Cochrane had an enormous benefit in that he was born Lord Cochrane, heir to the Earl of Dundonald, and entered the navy at age five -- on paper -- when his navy captain uncle entered his name on his ship's roster. It is true that he had great ability, but officers like him or Nelson (whose uncle was Controller of the Navy) were more likely to have their abilities recognized than officers from a middle class background.

--Justin
A better example might be Stephen Decatur of the USN. He was commissioned a midshipman in 1798 and was promoted to captain in 1804, six years later. His promotion didn't owe to unusual openings above him; neither deaths nor fleet expansion were factors in his promotion. He was advanced for recognized ability in an unusually merit-based organization.

Ceti Alpha 5 wrote: View Post
If you want an example of rapid promotion through the Starfleet ranks then Riker's early career is probably a good example. He was an ensign in 2358, promoted to lieutenant in 2361 and then promoted again to lieutenant commander in 2362. He then transferred from operations to command division and became first officer of the USS Hood. Promoted to full commander in 2364 he then joined the Enterprise. In theory if anything to Capt DeSoto during his time on the Hood, Riker could have taken command of that ship just 4-5 years after leaving the Academy.
Wasn't Riker offered command of a ship in 2364, which he turned down to take the post aboard the Enterprise? If he'd accepted, he'd have gone from Ensign to Captain in no more than six years.

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
Captain Intrepid wrote: View Post
So? Starfleet doesn't have to work like the US Navy, why can't it work more like the Royal Navy? The RN's much more interesting anyways.
Today, it take a line officer 20-25 years to reach captain in either the RN or USN, regardless of who they are or what they've done. Officer personnel management has come a long way from how it was done 200 years ago. Those systems had major flaws, which is why we don't use them any more.
It's technically possible, under the current system, to make rear admiral (lower half) in 15 years, and captain in 12. A high quality officer should usually have reached the rank of captain by 20 years. The best officers should reach it sooner, having been promoted from in zone at least once. On the far edge of technical possibility, without using a 'needs of the service' rationale, an officer could be made a fleet admiral in 16 years (time-in-grade requirements cease after rear admiral (upper half)), though we've not had a fleet admiral since Chester Nimitz died in 1966, despite the Clinton administration's near-promotion of William Crowe to that grade (and Colin Powell to general of the army). Promotion to Admiral of the Navy might also be technically possible, but it's unclear if the rank is still on the books.
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Old November 24 2008, 12:47 AM   #137
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

There's an awful lot of conversation about real world ranking systems, but look at the World of Trek. Riker could have been Captain in six years apparently, and Harry Kim stays an Ensign for seven. I don't think Riker's a particularly wonderful officer, and I don't think Harry Kim is a horrible one. It just all goes back to what I said originally - the writers assign rank on the main purpose of what rank fits best for what kind of story they want to tell. Not on any particular real world feasability.
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Old November 24 2008, 01:37 AM   #138
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

Cicero wrote: View Post
A better example might be Stephen Decatur of the USN. He was commissioned a midshipman in 1798 and was promoted to captain in 1804, six years later. His promotion didn't owe to unusual openings above him; neither deaths nor fleet expansion were factors in his promotion. He was advanced for recognized ability in an unusually merit-based organization.
Not so much for ability, which he certainly had, but for a single heroic action. Such "reward" promotions were not too uncommon in those days, though certainly not without controversy. Much resentment was caused by Decatur jumping over seven senior lieutenants (the rank of master commandant [commander] not being in use at the time). One, Andrew Sterett, a very able officer whose Enterprise captured the first enemy vessel in the Barbary campaign, resigned over the issue.

Even more contentious was the promotion of Charles Morris to captain for being first lieutenant of Constitution in her victory over Guerriere. Leapfrogging seven lieutenants and eight masters commandant, Morris's promotion aroused such a furor that it contributed to the resignation of SecNav Hamilton late in 1812.

One must keep in mind that promotion was just about the only way the service could visibly recognize and reward heroism at that time. That function is now ably filled by decorations and medals, and pretty much no one wants to go back to using promotions in that way.

--Justin
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Old November 24 2008, 01:48 AM   #139
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

Logical Leopard wrote: View Post
Riker could have been Captain in six years apparently
Six years from what? When we first meet Riker, we have no idea how old he is or how long he's been in Starfleet.

and Harry Kim stays an Ensign for seven.
Mostly because they were so far away that they couldn't be promoted. I don't think Janeway has the authority to do it herself. (Starfleet did, OTOH, promote a lot of them two steps in rank when they returned home, to make up for lost time. That's why Kim is a full Lieutenant, Tom Paris is a LCDR, etc.).
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Old November 24 2008, 02:48 AM   #140
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

PowderedToastMan wrote: View Post
Jackson_Roykirk wrote: View Post
DeafPoet wrote: View Post

If the trailer breakdown over at Trekmovie is to be believed, Entertainment Weekly is right about Kirk's shirt meaning he's a cadet.
Thanks...I just checked that out.

I STILL think Kirk has to be in some sort of Command School or something (hence he is "technically" a cadet)...I don't know. I'm just talking out my ass now.

If he IS truly a cadet, I hope there is a damn good reason for him to be taking temporary command of a ship full of senior officers.

I know trekmovie.com usually does their due diligence, but maybe they are simply speculating about this (and some other details) just like the rest of us.

I did notice that he is wearing gold when he says "Buckle up", so maybe he DOESN'T take command while in the "cadet" black shirt. Perhaps I made a wrong assumption and he only takes command later (when he is no longer a cadet).
There is no speculation in that article. As with all information we report it is 'double sourced' and where there is some question or a single source it is noted with a 'probably'

Things we are certain of include:
- Kirk is technically a cadet when in the 'black shirt'
- Enterprise is being built in Iowa
- Nero is being held at Rura Penthe

We have yet to get a spoiler wrong and the trailer and recent preview confirms many we have reported before
Didn't JJ say that the Earth scenes take place in Iowa and San Francisco?
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Old November 24 2008, 03:52 AM   #141
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

T J wrote: View Post
I
Then later we see Kirk and MCcoy as cadets graduating (kinda strange but fine ok). Then they leave earth have the whole adventure. Now can someone hypothesize for me how Kirk is a Captain at the end? I know he gained the rank of Captain faster than anyone else in the fleet up till TNG time, I always assumed that was like 10 years. I know, just my silly assumption.


Any thoughts?
Well, in Star Trek IV he got demoted from Admiral to Captain by the end of that film, so I find it plausible for him to be captain by the end of this movie. Sometimes if you prolong the story the movie can get boring. Kirk has always done something outstanding so it could go either way.
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Old November 24 2008, 06:36 PM   #142
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Six years from what? When we first meet Riker, we have no idea how old he is or how long he's been in Starfleet.
I admit, I have not researched it myself. A poster above, or maybe a page or two back, stated that Riker went from Ensign to Commander that quickly, I believe. I don't think he mentioned how long Riker was an Ensign for though, but if it's true, that's four ranks in six years.



Mostly because they were so far away that they couldn't be promoted. I don't think Janeway has the authority to do it herself. (Starfleet did, OTOH, promote a lot of them two steps in rank when they returned home, to make up for lost time. That's why Kim is a full Lieutenant, Tom Paris is a LCDR, etc.).
If Janeway was able to give criminals (the Maquis officers) field ranks, I think she should have been able to do the same thing for Harry Kim. Of course, they wouldn't be "official" until they got back, or made contact with Starfleet, but when you're on the other side of the galaxy, you can pretty much do what you want.
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Old November 24 2008, 06:57 PM   #143
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

Logical Leopard wrote: View Post
Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Six years from what? When we first meet Riker, we have no idea how old he is or how long he's been in Starfleet.
I admit, I have not researched it myself. A poster above, or maybe a page or two back, stated that Riker went from Ensign to Commander that quickly, I believe. I don't think he mentioned how long Riker was an Ensign for though, but if it's true, that's four ranks in six years.
According to Memory Alpha, he graduated in 2357 and was promoted to commander and first officer of the Enterprise in 2364.
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Old November 24 2008, 07:28 PM   #144
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Devon wrote: View Post
Captain X wrote: View Post
The line from Pike about making captain in 4 years was ludicrous enough as it was.
Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't the line "Be promoted in 4, have your own ship in 8 years?"
But it's insane. We know that in this flick, Kirk goes to the academy, and three years later is smuggled onto the Enterprise, still a cadet... and ends up IN COMMAND within a few days.
....
Imagine... 2LT Nixon, after a couple of days in the field, being miraculously promoted to take the position of "the old man" in "Band of Brothers."

That's what we're talking about in this movie. It's NONSENSE.
You seem to know a lot more about this movie's plot than everybody else, where are you getting this from? All we've seen is descriptions of 4 scenes, potentially not even in order, showing events from the film, and a number of 2 second or shorter clips almost certainly out of sequence. Anything else is supposition on your part.

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Sharr Khan wrote: View Post
We're fairly sure that this movie has TIME JUMPS in it, isn't it likely the movie will pick up years later?

Sharr
I thought that at one point, but I don't anymore. I only see evidence of a single "jump" from the time that Kirk and Co, under the command of Pike, leave Earth.

Maybe I'm wrong... but as far as I can see, there's no evidence anymore to support that.
There's a lot more evidence to support the concept of time jumps in the film than there is to support your 'cadet to captain in a few days' theory.

Edited to add an example: In all the scenes with black shirted Kirk and Spock hating/hitting him, Kirk has that injury under his eye - on the shot of him on the bridge in a captains shirt and giving Spock a friendly backslap, his hair is subtly different and his injuries are gone. Odds are that scene does not follow on in any quick succession from the 'black shirt' scenes.
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Old November 24 2008, 08:19 PM   #145
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

cultcross wrote: View Post
In all the scenes with black shirted Kirk and Spock hating/hitting him, Kirk has that injury under his eye - on the shot of him on the bridge in a captains shirt and giving Spock a friendly backslap, his hair is subtly different and his injuries are gone. Odds are that scene does not follow on in any quick succession from the 'black shirt' scenes.
Also, in the latter shot, Kirk is wearing the stripes of a full Captain.
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Old November 24 2008, 09:03 PM   #146
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
cultcross wrote: View Post
In all the scenes with black shirted Kirk and Spock hating/hitting him, Kirk has that injury under his eye - on the shot of him on the bridge in a captains shirt and giving Spock a friendly backslap, his hair is subtly different and his injuries are gone. Odds are that scene does not follow on in any quick succession from the 'black shirt' scenes.
Also, in the latter shot, Kirk is wearing the stripes of a full Captain.
Which would be why cultcross described it as "a captains shirt", presumably.

(And it's McCoy on the receiving end of the slap on the shoulder, I believe.

)
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Old November 24 2008, 09:04 PM   #147
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

T J wrote: View Post
I will admit I am pretty confused on the timeline of things for lack of a better term. In this movie we see Kirk as a kid, fine ok. I guessing Tarsus 4 won’t be brought into this.


Then later we see Kirk and MCcoy as cadets graduating (kinda strange but fine ok). Then they leave earth have the whole adventure. Now can someone hypothesize for me how Kirk is a Captain at the end? I know he gained the rank of Captain faster than anyone else in the fleet up till TNG time, I always assumed that was like 10 years. I know, just my silly assumption.


Unless the story advances years after he first arrives as a cadet I’m very confused. If he makes Captain in a week how can we take that realistically? I know realistic has little to do with it.

Any thoughts?
where does it show him making Captain?
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Old November 24 2008, 09:08 PM   #148
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

There is that single shot the two posters above discuss: Kirk in gold shirt that has Captain braid, backslapping somebody and a voice(over?) saying "Let's buckle up!". That's the last bit in the second trailer.

It should be noted that the sequence in the trailer shows Kirk and McCoy as simultaneous cadets - but later shows McCoy as a Lieutenant Commander. So it's not just Kirk's career that moves forward. We have every reason, then, to think that a significant amount of time passes between the "Kirk and McCoy are cadets" scenes and the "McCoy is a Lieutenant Commander" scenes, hence giving time for Kirk to climb the rank ladder, too.

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Old November 24 2008, 10:47 PM   #149
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

So...what, McCoy becomes a commander right out of the academy but Kirk remains a cadet...in command of the ship...With Chekov, Sulu and Uhura all graduated before them...And Spock already on the ship.

Me thinks the trailer scenes may be a little out of order or something.
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Old November 24 2008, 11:11 PM   #150
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Re: So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

ancient wrote: View Post
So...what, McCoy becomes a commander right out of the academy but Kirk remains a cadet...in command of the ship...With Chekov, Sulu and Uhura all graduated before them...And Spock already on the ship.

Me thinks the trailer scenes may be a little out of order or something.
That's very common for trailers. Very very common.

I think it's kinda ignoring the common sense knowledge of how trailers are constructed to take this trailer seriously.
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