So Cadet to Captain in what... a week?!

[Cicero]

J.T.B. wrote:

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Not really comparable, though, as it would take only three promotions to reach captain in the Napoleonic period, instead of seven. And though the percentage of captains inservice then might not be much different from a modern service, many of these were on half pay without assignment, whereas today they would have left the service or retired.

Rather preposterous arrangements which give no thought to the larger personnel management implications. The more that model is avoided the better.

The personnel practices of the Royal Navy c. 1800 are probably not a very good comparison for Starfleet. The navy's policies reflected the class system of the time, when social background and political connections mattered more than ability. Cochrane had an enormous benefit in that he was born Lord Cochrane, heir to the Earl of Dundonald, and entered the navy at age five -- on paper -- when his navy captain uncle entered his name on his ship's roster. It is true that he had great ability, but officers like him or Nelson (whose uncle was Controller of the Navy) were more likely to have their abilities recognized than officers from a middle class background.

--Justin

A better example might be Stephen Decatur of the USN. He was commissioned a midshipman in 1798 and was promoted to captain in 1804, six years later. His promotion didn't owe to unusual openings above him; neither deaths nor fleet expansion were factors in his promotion. He was advanced for recognized ability in an unusually merit-based organization.

Ceti Alpha 5 wrote:

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If you want an example of rapid promotion through the Starfleet ranks then Riker's early career is probably a good example. He was an ensign in 2358, promoted to lieutenant in 2361 and then promoted again to lieutenant commander in 2362. He then transferred from operations to command division and became first officer of the USS Hood. Promoted to full commander in 2364 he then joined the Enterprise. In theory if anything to Capt DeSoto during his time on the Hood, Riker could have taken command of that ship just 4-5 years after leaving the Academy.

Wasn't Riker offered command of a ship in 2364, which he turned down to take the post aboard the Enterprise? If he'd accepted, he'd have gone from Ensign to Captain in no more than six years.

J.T.B. wrote:

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Today, it take a line officer 20-25 years to reach captain in either the RN or USN, regardless of who they are or what they've done. Officer personnel management has come a long way from how it was done 200 years ago. Those systems had major flaws, which is why we don't use them any more.

It's technically possible, under the current system, to make rear admiral (lower half) in 15 years, and captain in 12. A high quality officer should usually have reached the rank of captain by 20 years. The best officers should reach it sooner, having been promoted from in zone at least once. On the far edge of technical possibility, without using a 'needs of the service' rationale, an officer could be made a fleet admiral in 16 years (time-in-grade requirements cease after rear admiral (upper half)), though we've not had a fleet admiral since Chester Nimitz died in 1966, despite the Clinton administration's near-promotion of William Crowe to that grade (and Colin Powell to general of the army). Promotion to Admiral of the Navy might also be technically possible, but it's unclear if the rank is still on the books.

[Logical Leopard]

There's an awful lot of conversation about real world ranking systems, but look at the World of Trek. Riker could have been Captain in six years apparently, and Harry Kim stays an Ensign for seven. I don't think Riker's a particularly wonderful officer, and I don't think Harry Kim is a horrible one. It just all goes back to what I said originally - the writers assign rank on the main purpose of what rank fits best for what kind of story they want to tell. Not on any particular real world feasability.

[J.T.B.]

Cicero wrote:

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A better example might be Stephen Decatur of the USN. He was commissioned a midshipman in 1798 and was promoted to captain in 1804, six years later. His promotion didn't owe to unusual openings above him; neither deaths nor fleet expansion were factors in his promotion. He was advanced for recognized ability in an unusually merit-based organization.

Not so much for ability, which he certainly had, but for a single heroic action. Such "reward" promotions were not too uncommon in those days, though certainly not without controversy. Much resentment was caused by Decatur jumping over seven senior lieutenants (the rank of master commandant [commander] not being in use at the time). One, Andrew Sterett, a very able officer whose Enterprise captured the first enemy vessel in the Barbary campaign, resigned over the issue.

Even more contentious was the promotion of Charles Morris to captain for being first lieutenant of Constitution in her victory over Guerriere. Leapfrogging seven lieutenants and eight masters commandant, Morris's promotion aroused such a furor that it contributed to the resignation of SecNav Hamilton late in 1812.

One must keep in mind that promotion was just about the only way the service could visibly recognize and reward heroism at that time. That function is now ably filled by decorations and medals, and pretty much no one wants to go back to using promotions in that way.

--Justin

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Logical Leopard wrote:

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Riker could have been Captain in six years apparently

Six years from what? When we first meet Riker, we have no idea how old he is or how long he's been in Starfleet.

and Harry Kim stays an Ensign for seven.

Mostly because they were so far away that they couldn't be promoted. I don't think Janeway has the authority to do it herself. (Starfleet did, OTOH, promote a lot of them two steps in rank when they returned home, to make up for lost time. That's why Kim is a full Lieutenant, Tom Paris is a LCDR, etc.).

[Awesome Possum]

PowderedToastMan wrote:

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There is no speculation in that article. As with all information we report it is 'double sourced' and where there is some question or a single source it is noted with a 'probably'

Things we are certain of include:
- Kirk is technically a cadet when in the 'black shirt'
- Enterprise is being built in Iowa
- Nero is being held at Rura Penthe

We have yet to get a spoiler wrong and the trailer and recent preview confirms many we have reported before

Didn't JJ say that the Earth scenes take place in Iowa and San Francisco?

[darkshadow0001]

T J wrote:

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I
Then later we see Kirk and MCcoy as cadets graduating (kinda strange but fine ok). Then they leave earth have the whole adventure. Now can someone hypothesize for me how Kirk is a Captain at the end? I know he gained the rank of Captain faster than anyone else in the fleet up till TNG time, I always assumed that was like 10 years. I know, just my silly assumption.


Any thoughts?

Well, in Star Trek IV he got demoted from Admiral to Captain by the end of that film, so I find it plausible for him to be captain by the end of this movie. Sometimes if you prolong the story the movie can get boring. Kirk has always done something outstanding so it could go either way.

[Logical Leopard]

Babaganoosh wrote:

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Six years from what? When we first meet Riker, we have no idea how old he is or how long he's been in Starfleet.

I admit, I have not researched it myself. A poster above, or maybe a page or two back, stated that Riker went from Ensign to Commander that quickly, I believe. I don't think he mentioned how long Riker was an Ensign for though, but if it's true, that's four ranks in six years.

Mostly because they were so far away that they couldn't be promoted. I don't think Janeway has the authority to do it herself. (Starfleet did, OTOH, promote a lot of them two steps in rank when they returned home, to make up for lost time. That's why Kim is a full Lieutenant, Tom Paris is a LCDR, etc.).

If Janeway was able to give criminals (the Maquis officers) field ranks, I think she should have been able to do the same thing for Harry Kim. Of course, they wouldn't be "official" until they got back, or made contact with Starfleet, but when you're on the other side of the galaxy, you can pretty much do what you want.

[GilmourD]

Logical Leopard wrote:

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I admit, I have not researched it myself. A poster above, or maybe a page or two back, stated that Riker went from Ensign to Commander that quickly, I believe. I don't think he mentioned how long Riker was an Ensign for though, but if it's true, that's four ranks in six years.

According to Memory Alpha, he graduated in 2357 and was promoted to commander and first officer of the Enterprise in 2364.

[cultcross]

Cary L. Brown wrote:

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But it's insane. We know that in this flick, Kirk goes to the academy, and three years later is smuggled onto the Enterprise, still a cadet... and ends up IN COMMAND within a few days.
....
Imagine... 2LT Nixon, after a couple of days in the field, being miraculously promoted to take the position of "the old man" in "Band of Brothers."

That's what we're talking about in this movie. It's NONSENSE.

You seem to know a lot more about this movie's plot than everybody else, where are you getting this from? All we've seen is descriptions of 4 scenes, potentially not even in order, showing events from the film, and a number of 2 second or shorter clips almost certainly out of sequence. Anything else is supposition on your part.

Cary L. Brown wrote:

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I thought that at one point, but I don't anymore. I only see evidence of a single "jump" from the time that Kirk and Co, under the command of Pike, leave Earth.

Maybe I'm wrong... but as far as I can see, there's no evidence anymore to support that.

There's a lot more evidence to support the concept of time jumps in the film than there is to support your 'cadet to captain in a few days' theory.

Edited to add an example: In all the scenes with black shirted Kirk and Spock hating/hitting him, Kirk has that injury under his eye - on the shot of him on the bridge in a captains shirt and giving Spock a friendly backslap, his hair is subtly different and his injuries are gone. Odds are that scene does not follow on in any quick succession from the 'black shirt' scenes.

[Mr. Laser Beam]

cultcross wrote:

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In all the scenes with black shirted Kirk and Spock hating/hitting him, Kirk has that injury under his eye - on the shot of him on the bridge in a captains shirt and giving Spock a friendly backslap, his hair is subtly different and his injuries are gone. Odds are that scene does not follow on in any quick succession from the 'black shirt' scenes.

Also, in the latter shot, Kirk is wearing the stripes of a full Captain.

[M'Sharak]

Babaganoosh wrote:

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Also, in the latter shot, Kirk is wearing the stripes of a full Captain.

Which would be why cultcross described it as "a captains shirt", presumably.

(And it's McCoy on the receiving end of the slap on the shoulder, I believe.

)

[seigezunt]

T J wrote:

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I will admit I am pretty confused on the timeline of things for lack of a better term. In this movie we see Kirk as a kid, fine ok. I guessing Tarsus 4 won’t be brought into this.


Then later we see Kirk and MCcoy as cadets graduating (kinda strange but fine ok). Then they leave earth have the whole adventure. Now can someone hypothesize for me how Kirk is a Captain at the end? I know he gained the rank of Captain faster than anyone else in the fleet up till TNG time, I always assumed that was like 10 years. I know, just my silly assumption.


Unless the story advances years after he first arrives as a cadet I’m very confused. If he makes Captain in a week how can we take that realistically? I know realistic has little to do with it.

Any thoughts?

where does it show him making Captain?

[Timo]

There is that single shot the two posters above discuss: Kirk in gold shirt that has Captain braid, backslapping somebody and a voice(over?) saying "Let's buckle up!". That's the last bit in the second trailer.

It should be noted that the sequence in the trailer shows Kirk and McCoy as simultaneous cadets - but later shows McCoy as a Lieutenant Commander. So it's not just Kirk's career that moves forward. We have every reason, then, to think that a significant amount of time passes between the "Kirk and McCoy are cadets" scenes and the "McCoy is a Lieutenant Commander" scenes, hence giving time for Kirk to climb the rank ladder, too.

Timo Saloniemi

[ancient]

So...what, McCoy becomes a commander right out of the academy but Kirk remains a cadet...in command of the ship...With Chekov, Sulu and Uhura all graduated before them...And Spock already on the ship.

Me thinks the trailer scenes may be a little out of order or something.

[Kirk1980]

ancient wrote:

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So...what, McCoy becomes a commander right out of the academy but Kirk remains a cadet...in command of the ship...With Chekov, Sulu and Uhura all graduated before them...And Spock already on the ship.

Me thinks the trailer scenes may be a little out of order or something.

That's very common for trailers. Very very common.

I think it's kinda ignoring the common sense knowledge of how trailers are constructed to take this trailer seriously.