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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade "Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night"
Excellent 105 69.08%
Above Average 35 23.03%
Average 8 5.26%
Below Average 2 1.32%
Poor 2 1.32%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 11 2008, 11:28 AM   #316
Baerbel Haddrell
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Now that I am back, a few more comments:

Lightning Storm
I understand what you are saying. I don`t deny that looking at the letter of the law, Dr. Ree did nothing wrong. As soon as an order becomes controversial but is within this letter of the law, of course it becomes a matter of debate and as with the Vulcan mind meld issue, a clarification is necessary.

Christopher
All right, a 12 week old fetus then. Well, I was about 12 weeks pregnant when I had my first ultrasound. At that time I was still wondering if I was pregnant at all and expected to see maybe a lump of cells. I don`t care if the medical term is embryo or fetus. What I saw was a baby with a head, arms and legs. It was moving around. It was playing with its toes. I was amazed.

I am not digging through the book again in order to find the exact wording. Maybe strictly speaking Riker stopped Dr. Ree from making it an order, maybe he made it an order and retracted it, maybe he just threatened to make it an order. I am not getting worked up over nothing. The fact remains that Starfleet doctors have the legal right to force a woman to have an abortion.

This discussion is becoming too difficult for me emotionally and it seems continuing it is pointless anyway. This is probably the last posting about this matter for now.
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Old November 11 2008, 11:58 AM   #317
Claudia
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

JD wrote: View Post
Claudia wrote: View Post
Hm, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree. IMO a doctor's first duty is to present the truth, make his/her recommendation - and then support the patient in whatever he/she decides, even if the doctor doesn't agree. And that last point is where Ree ultimately failed horribly.
I don't mean to come across as an ass, but IMO the third part isn't really an absolute. Hell, I know that if I wouldn't want my doctor to automatically support me in whatever I decide. If the doctor thinks I'm being an idiot, I'd want them to tell me.
Of course, that's included in the third part... even going as far as refering the patient to another doctor if you *can't* support his/her decisions. Support's definitely not the same as 100% agreement.

As for the Deanna debate, I think part of the problem is that this is a lot more complicated than should she or shouldn't she get an abortion. The most important part of this is the fact that Deanna WILL DIE if she doesn't get the abortion, so it's not really a matter of the baby. As for the baby, as far as they know there is nothing that can be done for it, so to Vale and Ree who have no connection to it, it is pretty much a non-issue, and this is where the problems start, because to Deanna it is.
Yes, exactly. And how much harder would the choice (and discussion) have been if there had been even the remotest chance that the baby could be born alive (even if maybe with defects)...

Christopher wrote: View Post
In humans, an embryo doesn't even enter the fetal stage until 11 weeks into the pregnancy[...]
Er... I think you're wrong on that one. Once an embryo developed the beginnings of all the major organ systems it's called fetus - and that happens at around 8-9 weeks into the pregnancy...

But of course, it could be that in the US the definition of embryonal and fetal stages differ...

David Mack wrote:
First, Ree recommends the hysterectomy at least in part to prevent the risk of "future oncological complications" -- in other words, he believes that Troi's prolonged Eichner radiation exposure has put her at a significantly elevated risk for ovarian cancer.
Sorry, my mistake, I forgot the risk for ovarian cancer... but while that might warrant a removal of the ovaries, it still doesn't mean the womb has to go as well. Therefore, he should have "merely" suggested an ovarectomy but not a hysterectomy since Troi doesn't have cancer yet.

BTW, David, thanks for even toeing that fine line of abortion, pro-life/pro-choice etc. While I'd have loved to see this situation go even further (see above in this post), I appreciate that such a serious topic is brought up at all - that not every miracle of life is demystified, so to speak, in the 24th century, but that people still have to face the same, sometimes awful, decisions like we do.
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Old November 11 2008, 02:55 PM   #318
MMCL
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

An interesting debate

Without looking at the nature of the medical problem we should remember that the issue here is that she is a senior officer in a pseudo-military organisation. She has a responsibility to her duties and the crew first and foremost. Anything medical that effects her ability to carry out those duties is a risk to 'the team' or 'the mission' and as such the CMO has the power to stop and minimise that risk.

Her CMO has advised her (not ordered) the best precautions in his opinion - and remember he is an expert in this specific field - and she is unwilling (in the book, when asked she chose WON'T over CAN'T) to take those precautions.

After her decision has been made (which she should be allowed to make from a moral perspective) the CMO has the choice to then make it an order or not, or to suggest a compromise - eg light duties.
If it's then an order she has two choices - accept the order, or resign. That's the nature of the establishment she is in.

If she was a civilian, the issues would be the same but her doctor could not take the same stance - eg her can't order her, and she can chose to do whatever she wants.

The fact it is a pregnancy/baby that's involved is not the issue IMO.

Last edited by MMCL; November 11 2008 at 02:57 PM. Reason: dodgy grammar!
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Old November 11 2008, 03:54 PM   #319
Christopher
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Claudia wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
In humans, an embryo doesn't even enter the fetal stage until 11 weeks into the pregnancy[...]
Er... I think you're wrong on that one. Once an embryo developed the beginnings of all the major organ systems it's called fetus - and that happens at around 8-9 weeks into the pregnancy...
Wikipedia said it begins 9 weeks after fertilization but at the beginning of the 11th week in gestational age. Evidently I misinterpreted that, since gestational age is counted from the start of the previous menstrual period, which apparently is traditionally assumed to be two weeks before fertilization. So you're right. So the fetus would've been 12 weeks old and thus in its "14th week" of gestational age.
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Old November 11 2008, 10:45 PM   #320
Ronald Held
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Interesting discussion. The civilizations of the Alpha and Beta Quadrants have a high probablilty to become extinct, and Dianna's medical condition fills pages of this thread.
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Old November 11 2008, 11:22 PM   #321
Stevil2001
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Yes, but what can you debate about impending extinction? I don't think anyone here would disagree that it's a bad thing...
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Old November 12 2008, 12:03 AM   #322
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
Yes, but what can you debate about impending extinction? I don't think anyone here would disagree that it's a bad thing...
Oh I don't know, the Borg could be an uber mass-extinction causing event!
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Old November 12 2008, 12:51 PM   #323
Baerbel Haddrell
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Probably not because I doubt it that there would be much of Star Trek left.
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Old November 12 2008, 09:46 PM   #324
MMCL
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Baerbel Haddrell wrote: View Post
Probably not because I doubt it that there would be much of Star Trek left.
Which could be quite interesting... an almost destroyed alpha/beta quadrant 'starting over' and learning to grow again... it'd be almost like a reboot without the big shoes
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Old November 14 2008, 06:04 AM   #325
GHS
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

I thought Gods of Night was one of the better Trek books I've read -certainly in the top 10. David Mack seemed raring to take the story straight into territory other writers have til now either been too timid or never allowed to do previously.

I came in unfamiliar with the newly created crew members and pretty much left that way, except for a handful that made an impression: Ree, Bowers, Vale. Keeping them all straight was something I stopped worrying about early on. "I head for licensed fiction to be with old friends, not make new ones", as Odo might say.

I read this over the course of several weeks, which could be why I had an ongoing problem of not being able to recall what any of the 24th century ships were trying to accomplish when their storyline would pick back up ("let's see, were they tracking the pulse trail or investigating the dark planetoids?"). I found all the segments equally intriguing and never felt let down to be leaving one storyline to go back to another. Conversely, while the book was consistently excellent, I never felt like there was one moment that really floored me, either. The best laugh in the book for me (and the only one read out loud to my better half) was "Did you say girl?", followed by Ree's reaction. As to whether the 4 storylines meshed perfectly together, that I probably can't answer until book 3.

Not to badmouth other authors, but I can imagine the Riker/Troi plot in other hands turning out painfully bad. Despite to spotty science applied, I thought it made great drama. What's more, I don't think Allyn's "Federation ban" explanation would have worked dramatically - the reader would just be constantly wiating for Dr. Ree to ignore the stupid rule in the sake of saving Troi. In retrospect, maybe David didn't make it "techobabbly" enough, since why she can't carry the fetus to term isn't the point.

Can't wait for book two!
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Old November 14 2008, 05:16 PM   #326
William Leisner
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

GHS wrote: View Post
Not to badmouth other authors, but I can imagine the Riker/Troi plot in other hands turning out painfully bad.
I can only imagine if you did want to badmouth other authors...
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Old November 15 2008, 08:02 AM   #327
GHS
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Well, since I said I'd like to see more of your work (like, five years ago?), and have yet to be offered a Trek novel of yours to purchase, I'm probably not referring to your talent
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Old November 15 2008, 11:36 AM   #328
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

GHS wrote: View Post
and have yet to be offered a Trek novel of yours to purchase,
Myriad Universes: Infinity's Prism.
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Old November 15 2008, 07:01 PM   #329
William Leisner
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

GHS wrote: View Post
Well, since I said I'd like to see more of your work (like, five years ago?), and have yet to be offered a Trek novel of yours to purchase, I'm probably not referring to your talent
And how does that make your comment any less insulting to all the other authors on this board?
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Old November 15 2008, 07:26 PM   #330
JoeZhang
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

William Leisner wrote: View Post
GHS wrote: View Post
Well, since I said I'd like to see more of your work (like, five years ago?), and have yet to be offered a Trek novel of yours to purchase, I'm probably not referring to your talent
And how does that make your comment any less insulting to all the other authors on this board?
What if it is? If that's his viewpoint, they will have to lump it.
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