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View Poll Results: Grade "Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night"
Excellent 105 69.08%
Above Average 35 23.03%
Average 8 5.26%
Below Average 2 1.32%
Poor 2 1.32%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 8 2008, 01:07 AM   #286
dave_R_treker
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

I finished the book wednesday night. Got through 1/4 of that day. I have never been able to do that. Its as good, if not better then anything they have showed on screen. I would have to give it a rating of (9.75/10) I hope the next three is as equally great. I have started book two, and so far it is.
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Old November 9 2008, 12:51 AM   #287
Claudia
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

I finished "Gods of Night" today and enjoyed it quite much. It's certainly a good setup and I'm eager to see how the plotthreads develop and come together.

The only thing I didn't agree with that much was the Deanna-subplot. I seriously doubt Ree's qualifications as a chief medical officer. While not everyone can deal with everything properly, he should have seen that he was quite unskilled in dealing with Deanna's problems, and thus should have refered her to another doctor on Titan (he can't be the only one after all). It's appalling that she wasn't really given time to come to terms with the diagnosis and think through her options. And from a purely medical point of view, I didn't quite understand the haste Ree was trying to enforce...

But well, let's see what happens next (in this plotthread and all the others). I'm looking forward to #2.
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Old November 9 2008, 02:04 AM   #288
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Claudia wrote: View Post
I finished "Gods of Night" today and enjoyed it quite much. It's certainly a good setup and I'm eager to see how the plotthreads develop and come together.

The only thing I didn't agree with that much was the Deanna-subplot. I seriously doubt Ree's qualifications as a chief medical officer. While not everyone can deal with everything properly, he should have seen that he was quite unskilled in dealing with Deanna's problems, and thus should have refered her to another doctor on Titan (he can't be the only one after all). It's appalling that she wasn't really given time to come to terms with the diagnosis and think through her options. And from a purely medical point of view, I didn't quite understand the haste Ree was trying to enforce...

But well, let's see what happens next (in this plotthread and all the others). I'm looking forward to #2.
From what I gathered, Ree's haste was due to how he couldn't set a time as to when Deanna's body would reject the fetus - it could be a month, a week, or in five minutes. He wanted to deal with it as soon as possible, since there was no crisis requiring Deanna to be in action when she should be in surgery or recovering.
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Old November 9 2008, 11:47 AM   #289
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
From what I gathered, Ree's haste was due to how he couldn't set a time as to when Deanna's body would reject the fetus - it could be a month, a week, or in five minutes. He wanted to deal with it as soon as possible, since there was no crisis requiring Deanna to be in action when she should be in surgery or recovering.
Yes, I get that. But right at that moment, the pregnancy was still intact, the fetus wasn't viable, but it wasn't dead yet either. It would be different entirely, if the fetus were already dead and left in the womb, but that's not what happened - it would happen eventually, but it didn't already. At least that's what I gathered from Ree's explanations.

And quite frankly, given Ree and to a lesser extent Vale's attitude, no pregnant woman should remain on duty - because it's the nature of a pregnancy that something *could* happen at an inconvenient time... as we've already seen in Titan #1 or #2 (can't remember which now)...
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Old November 9 2008, 09:52 PM   #290
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

^Yeah, but this time it's not just a normal pregnancy, it is a threat to Deanna's life, and I have a feeling that when things start to go wrong it will probably happen pretty quickly.
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Old November 9 2008, 09:58 PM   #291
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

JD wrote: View Post
^Yeah, but this time it's not just a normal pregnancy, it is a threat to Deanna's life, and I have a feeling that when things start to go wrong it will probably happen pretty quickly.
Exactly - the fetus will NOT survive at all. It's not that the fetus may or may not survive - it WILL abort itself, and at any point in time. Because it's not going to survive to term but Deanna wants to keep it, Ree and Vale both think that Deanna is acting irrationally and that it SHOULD be removed.
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Old November 9 2008, 10:05 PM   #292
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
Exactly - the fetus will NOT survive at all.
It might. Caeliar technology does seem to be very advanced.
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Old November 9 2008, 11:27 PM   #293
Claudia
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Stephen! wrote: View Post
DGCatAniSiri wrote: View Post
Exactly - the fetus will NOT survive at all.
It might. Caeliar technology does seem to be very advanced.
That's my suspicion as well - especially given that compromise of putting the pregnancy in stasis... just so long that something can come around to improve the situation. *g*

DGCatAniSiri wrote:
Exactly - the fetus will NOT survive at all. It's not that the fetus may or may not survive - it WILL abort itself, and at any point in time. Because it's not going to survive to term but Deanna wants to keep it, Ree and Vale both think that Deanna is acting irrationally and that it SHOULD be removed.
That was not my point. I know that the fetus would not survive, that it will abort itself at any moment... but that moment hasn't come yet. Until that moment, the pregnancy will continue like any other pregnancy. And of course, Deanna is acting irrationally - as are Ree and Vale in not giving her time to mourn and come to terms with what happened. And that the fetus should be removed is not their decision.

Frankly, it's appalling that Vale and Ree even consider forcing Deanna to undergo a medical procedure - again, if it's only because a miscarriage could happen at an inconvenient time then no one on a starship should be allowed to get pregnant, because anything can happen during a pregnancy. Somehow, this whole deliberation of using force reminds me a bit about Data and "The Measure of a Man", where Picard fought for Data's rights to decide his own fate - shouldn't Deanna have the same right?

Then again, sometimes (medical) ethics were never high on Trek agenda, think Tuvix, think Bashir & Bareil, think Kurn...
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Last edited by Claudia; November 10 2008 at 07:20 AM.
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Old November 9 2008, 11:37 PM   #294
Baerbel Haddrell
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

At least here in the real world people have the right to refuse treatment also if it endangers his or her life or is even fatal. This is certainly the case when such a person is able to make such a decision. Deanna is of course under a lot of strain. So far I have read two third of Mere Mortals but never had the impression that Deanna is insane or otherwise mentally unfit.

I think people tend to forget that pregnancies can be dangerous and that in countries with poor health service a lot of mothers and babies don`t survive pregnancies and births. Many women form a very strong bond with their unborn children from early on. I certainly did and that included accepting the risks involved. If my daughter and me would not have been so lucky with having access to modern hospital care, the outcome would have been very different.

I am amazed and I admit it, also shocked about how Deanna has been treated so far. That a Starfleet doctor has the right to abort her baby against her will is not something I would have expected to read in a Star Trek book. Dr. Ree also did very little to help. I appreciate it that people of his species don`t form strong bonds with their unhatched young but to just dismiss the unborn child by saying I can`t help is the wrong attitude. He even recommended a hysterectomy! Maybe he can`t help but there are others who maybe could. Also in the real world, if a doctor lacks the specialist knowledge, he would send the patient to someone who might have the answers. Dr. Ree didn`t even try to contact someone else.

Yes, with Caeliar technology, a lot could be possible. At least such options should be discussed thoroughly before any decision is made and this decision should be Deanna`s. That means, if it comes to the worst and the fetus has to be removed it should not just be treated as a diseased, dangerous growth in her body. Maybe it is possible to remove it, keep it alive and make a decision then.
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Last edited by Baerbel Haddrell; November 9 2008 at 11:40 PM. Reason: corrected an oversight
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Old November 9 2008, 11:49 PM   #295
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

I think you are all wrong and that
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Old November 10 2008, 12:53 AM   #296
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Claudia wrote: View Post
Frankly, it's appalling that Vale and Ree even consider forcing Deanna to undergo a medical procedure - again, if it's only because a miscarriage could happen at an inconvenient time then no one on a starship should be allowed to get pregnant, because anything can happen during a pregnancy.
That doesn't follow. There's a huge difference between the general awareness that "anything can happen" and the specific knowledge that something bad is going to happen. If a doctor decides that someone's on the verge of a heart attack, you don't send the person out to play football or climb a mountain. But it doesn't follow that nobody would ever be allowed to play football or climb a mountain because anyone might have an undiagnosed heart defect. There's an obvious and logical difference between the approach taken to a potential risk and the approach taken to a certain risk.

Besides -- the risk we're talking about here isn't just to the baby, it's to the mother. The miscarriage would endanger Deanna's life if it didn't happen under controlled conditions with immediate medical care available. Basically what Deanna was doing was tantamount to going on a suicide mission. And a captain or first officer has the authority to order a subordinate not to commit suicide. Let's remember she is an officer in a chain of command, and so her rights are not quite as absolute as they would be for a civilian.

Somehow, this whole deliberation of using force reminds me a bit about Data and "The Measure of a Man", where Picard fought for Data's rights to decide his own fate - shouldn't Deanna have the same right?
She did have the same right Data won there. She could've resigned her commission and therefore been freed from the obligation of following orders. But as long as she's a commander in Starfleet, she is subject to obeying decisions made on her behalf by others.


JoeZhang wrote: View Post
I think you are all wrong and that
I don't recall anyone suggesting that she would have the baby in Destiny Book 3. I mean, she's only three months pregnant at that point.
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Old November 10 2008, 07:37 AM   #297
Claudia
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
Besides -- the risk we're talking about here isn't just to the baby, it's to the mother. The miscarriage would endanger Deanna's life if it didn't happen under controlled conditions with immediate medical care available. Basically what Deanna was doing was tantamount to going on a suicide mission.
Sorry, but that's just a horrible exaggeration. I'm not saying that an uncontrolled miscarriage isn't dangerous - far from it. But it's definitely not the same as "tantamount to going on a suicide mission". I mean we're not talking about health care in a less developed country here, but medical care in the 24th century with ways to diagnose problems earlier than nowadays. I wonder for example why Ree didn't use that subdermal diagnostic gadget of his from the start - then he'd have been alerted to any problems immediately, and I don't think Deanna would have been opposed to that.

But no, he's got to suggest a hysterectomy...

I guess Beverly is lucky to be CMO herself, because while there are no immediate dangers in her pregnancy, just her age could be considered a risky thing - especially given that the Enterprise is engaged in direct combat and the CMO is definitely more required to be at her post than some Chief Counselor (except if there suddenly happens to be a First Contact-situation...)...

I'm not trying to diminish the fact that Deanna's at risk here, but even nowadays women aren't (or shouldn't be) encouraged to undergo an abortion *here and now* once they get the diagnosis that the fetus isn't viable. They are given time to think and decide. That's my main criticism here, that she wasn't even given that time of grace.

She did have the same right Data won there. She could've resigned her commission and therefore been freed from the obligation of following orders. But as long as she's a commander in Starfleet, she is subject to obeying decisions made on her behalf by others.
I'd agree if all other possibilities were out of the question - but that wasn't the case here, as evidenced by the sudden suggestion of stasis, or the implantation of that diagnostic thing. I realize it's not a treatment, but at least it buys some time and reduces the imminent danger. And time is all that was required here.
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Old November 10 2008, 09:00 AM   #298
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

This is not about “encouraging” Deanna to have an abortion here and now which is bad enough. This is about ordering her to have an abortion, something that is completely unacceptable and immoral.

It wasn`t even mentioned so far that Deanna was facing the choice between resigning and following this order. Dr. Ree was overruled by Riker but that doesn`t change the fact that a Starfleet doctor legally has the right to demand this procedure against the will of the woman in question. I find this incredible.

I wonder what the outcome would be if Deanna would fight this on the basis that demanding her to undergo an abortion is against her sentient rights and therefore an illegal order. As I said, how was that to work in practise? Stunning Deanna or dragging her by force into sickbay?

When Deanna went on this mission, I had reason to believe that Dr. Ree was carrying everything he needed to look after her with him. I am sure Riker would not have allowed Deanna to do so if it would have been a “suicide mission”. There were risks but within acceptable limits. I can`t find that part of the book right now but I think I remember that Dr. Ree was assuring Riker that Deanna`s condition will be manageable during the mission.
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Old November 10 2008, 03:48 PM   #299
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Claudia wrote: View Post
Sorry, but that's just a horrible exaggeration. I'm not saying that an uncontrolled miscarriage isn't dangerous - far from it. But it's definitely not the same as "tantamount to going on a suicide mission". I mean we're not talking about health care in a less developed country here, but medical care in the 24th century with ways to diagnose problems earlier than nowadays.
I'm not talking about miscarriages in general, I'm talking about this specific case as depicted in the book. Ree said specifically that if this miscarriage were allowed to happen, it would seriously endanger Deanna's health, even her life. Maybe "suicide mission" was an overstatement, but she was definitely putting her life in danger.


I'd agree if all other possibilities were out of the question - but that wasn't the case here, as evidenced by the sudden suggestion of stasis, or the implantation of that diagnostic thing. I realize it's not a treatment, but at least it buys some time and reduces the imminent danger. And time is all that was required here.
Given that they did do that, I don't see what you're objecting to. Yes, Ree advised a more permanent solution because that was what he believed was in the patient's best interest, but that was medical advice and it was overridden by the patient. So nobody's rights were violated.


Baerbel Haddrell wrote: View Post
This is not about “encouraging” Deanna to have an abortion here and now which is bad enough. This is about ordering her to have an abortion, something that is completely unacceptable and immoral.

It wasn`t even mentioned so far that Deanna was facing the choice between resigning and following this order. Dr. Ree was overruled by Riker but that doesn`t change the fact that a Starfleet doctor legally has the right to demand this procedure against the will of the woman in question. I find this incredible. I wonder what the outcome would be if Deanna would fight this on the basis that demanding her to undergo an abortion is against her sentient rights and therefore an illegal order.
Uhh, we're talking about a situation where the baby's death is 100% certain anyway. So you're misrepresenting the situation. It's not about whether the fetus lives or dies. Deanna isn't refusing an abortion, because the fetus is going to abort anyway, whether spontaneously or with medical assistance. (The term "abortion" technically refers to any ending of a pregnancy, including miscarriage. The formal term for a miscarriage is a spontaneous abortion.) The only question is whether the mother's life is endangered in the process.


When Deanna went on this mission, I had reason to believe that Dr. Ree was carrying everything he needed to look after her with him. I am sure Riker would not have allowed Deanna to do so if it would have been a “suicide mission”. There were risks but within acceptable limits. I can`t find that part of the book right now but I think I remember that Dr. Ree was assuring Riker that Deanna`s condition will be manageable during the mission.
You're taking my use of the word "mission" far too literally. I was only using it as a rough analogy for a crewmember putting her life in danger in general terms. Whether she was actually, literally on a mission had nothing to do with my point.
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Old November 10 2008, 05:49 PM   #300
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
I'm not talking about miscarriages in general, I'm talking about this specific case as depicted in the book. Ree said specifically that if this miscarriage were allowed to happen, it would seriously endanger Deanna's health, even her life.
Yes, that's how it was depicted - but I simply have problems with the medical science behind that diagnosis. Or rather, I need more facts *g*. Like, did the placenta form in such a way and place that she's prone to heavy bleeding when she aborts spontaneously?

As far as I've gathered from this book (don't know if this happened in any of the prior Titan-books, I stopped reading somewhere when they decided on trying for child), Deanna miscarried once already - did she experience any complications then?

As I said, I need more facts.

Christopher wrote:
Claudia wrote:
I'd agree if all other possibilities were out of the question - but that wasn't the case here, as evidenced by the sudden suggestion of stasis, or the implantation of that diagnostic thing. I realize it's not a treatment, but at least it buys some time and reduces the imminent danger. And time is all that was required here.
Given that they did do that, I don't see what you're objecting to. Yes, Ree advised a more permanent solution because that was what he believed was in the patient's best interest, but that was medical advice and it was overridden by the patient. So nobody's rights were violated.
Oh no, now you're oversimplifying the whole situation - because Deanna had to practically fight her way to that compromise. I guess, hadn't Riker intervened Ree and Vale wouldn't have had any problems to tie Deanna to that table and perform at least the abortion.

The end doesn't justify the means. Ree should have suggested that diagnostic thing and the stasis right from the start just to offer Deanna options. His two options were abortion or/and (preferably) a hysterectomy. I doubt he'd have had qualms about violating Deanna's rights as a patient - going behind her back is shady enough behaviour in such a situation.

Again, we're not even talking about the hysterectomy... that's as unsympathetic and unprofessional a "solution" (and not a necessary one even!) as it gets. I guess I'd shut down as well if I were given such options and pressured into this...
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