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Old October 23 2008, 09:32 AM   #31
Phily B
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Re: Section 31...

The idea of S31 always fascinated me. I always wondered what Sisko would've done if it was S31 he approached/worked with instead of Garak in ITPM. I think when you talk about Admiral Ross and the like, thats a good way to look at S31 and how they manipulate Starfleet.
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Old November 3 2008, 08:48 PM   #32
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Re: Section 31...

Sheliak wrote: View Post
Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
flandry84 wrote: View Post
I've always thought that Capt.Ben Maxwell was acting on info supplied by 31.Trouble is,now that we the audience know of their existence,it is tempting to retro-fit them into too many happenings in the Trek world.
I was always under the impression that Maxwell was totally freelancing. He probably noticed something in Cardassian troop movements or got sensor readings--all by his little lonesome.
Perhaps.
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Dude was paranoid. If it hadn't actually BEEN staring him in the face when he went looking for it, he probably would've manufactured it.

But as we know, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

Knowing what we know now, perhaps S31 chose Maxwell because they knew of his personal history. What with murder of his family during the war, he would be easy to manipulate into starting the confrontation with the Cardassian Union, something S31 wanted. He unknowingly worked for them.
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Old November 3 2008, 09:31 PM   #33
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Re: Section 31...

The weird thing about Section 31 is, if all the novels are to be taken as part of one's personal canon, that means that for a secret organization, they've been pret-ty damn loud. The Enterprise Incident and TUC come to mind. My only complaint about Section 31 is that a lot of negative things that the Federation or Starfleet has EVER done on screen is now retroactively accredited to the group, which suggests a very haphazard leadership.

Heck, if we didn't see Kirk and Co. steal the Enterprise, novelists would have probably blamed that one on Section 31 as well.
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Old November 4 2008, 08:39 AM   #34
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Re: Section 31...

Really, the Section's agenda would imply that the positive things we see onscreen are their doing, and the negative ones are what the Section was established to fight against...

S31 agents would probably have been hard at work to undermine the coup of ST6:TUC, for example, as they were primarily out to protect Federation integrity (at least insofar as the Federation's public image goes). They might have liked the idea of a decisive war with Klingons, but they would definitely have wanted it to take place in a way that left the Feds smelling like a whole forest of roses.

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Old November 4 2008, 02:10 PM   #35
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Re: Section 31...

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
The weird thing about Section 31 is, if all the novels are to be taken as part of one's personal canon, that means that for a secret organization, they've been pret-ty damn loud. The Enterprise Incident and TUC come to mind.
Not really. Cloak by SD Perry is ambiguous on whether or not it was Section 31's idea for the Enterprise to steal a cloaking device from the Romulans; the only thing that's firmly established is that they later took that cloaking device and used it to conduct secretive experiments into the Omega Particle.

Nothing has been established in the novels linking Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country and Section 31 other than that Admiral Cartwright was probably a member of Section 31. But that doesn't mean that they were in on the Khitomer Conspiracy. Doesn't mean they weren't, either; we simply have no data on it other than that Cartwright was involved with Section 31 in the 2260s.

My only complaint about Section 31 is that a lot of negative things that the Federation or Starfleet has EVER done on screen is now retroactively accredited to the group, which suggests a very haphazard leadership.
Again, not really. The only thing that the novels have specifically cited as being Section 31 retroactively is the Bak'u incident from Star Trek: Insurrection and the "death" of Trip Tucker from "These Are the Voyages...."
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Old November 7 2008, 01:27 AM   #36
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Re: Section 31...

I don't think S31 was any way involved with the Ben Maxwell incident. He was just nuts.
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Old November 7 2008, 06:13 AM   #37
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Re: Section 31...

LutherSloan wrote: View Post
I don't think S31 was any way involved with the Ben Maxwell incident. He was just nuts.
In that case, I consider the incident settled. Luther Sloan would never lie.
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Old November 7 2008, 07:16 AM   #38
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Re: Section 31...

Sheliak wrote: View Post
Who were the Tal Shiar in Ancient Rome?
The Praetorian Guard, perhaps?
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Old November 8 2008, 09:11 AM   #39
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Re: Section 31...

About Article 14, Section 31.

Can we assume, then, that Article 14 in general concerns the Intellegence branch?

Hmm...also, Sloan said something about the original Starfleet charter. I wonder if the later drafts...had only 30 sections...in Article 14....
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Old November 8 2008, 10:19 AM   #40
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Re: Section 31...

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
About Article 14, Section 31.

Can we assume, then, that Article 14 in general concerns the Intellegence branch?

Hmm...also, Sloan said something about the original Starfleet charter. I wonder if the later drafts...had only 30 sections...in Article 14....
In "Inquisition," Sloan said that Section 31 was part of the original Starfleet Charter, implying the existence of multiple Starfleet Charters.

Sure enough, ENT came along and established that there are two Starfleets: The United Earth Starfleet of ENT's era, and the Federation Starfleet of the TOS/TNG eras. In other words, Section 31 is citing as its legal justification for its existence a charter that is no longer in effect, that could no more be in effect for the Federation Starfleet than the British Royal Navy Charter could be in effect for the United States Navy.

Further, Article 14, Section 31 of the United Earth Starfleet Charter was only ever established to allow "certain rules" to be bent during times of extraordinary crisis. That's a far, far cry from the establishment of an organization that is given permanent carte blanche to do whatever it wants, whenever it wants, however it wants, and be answerable to no one.

I think it's pretty clear that Section 31 has no legal justification for its own existence, and that the justifications it has cited as as full of shit as the so-called legal reasonings produced by the Bush Administration to justify torturing enemy combatants.
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Old November 8 2008, 10:18 PM   #41
Rush Limborg
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Re: Section 31...

and that the justifications it has cited as as full of shit as the so-called legal reasonings produced by the Bush Administration to justify torturing enemy combatants.
Hey. Save it for The Neutral Zone, okay? Like I do.


Thanks for the info, though.

Two Starfleets, eh? Of course...there may be incentive for keeping the "United Earth" Starfleet for the Federation. Guess we'll just have to see how the ENT books turn out.
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Old November 8 2008, 11:36 PM   #42
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Re: Section 31...

Rush Limborg wrote: View Post
and that the justifications it has cited as as full of shit as the so-called legal reasonings produced by the Bush Administration to justify torturing enemy combatants.
Hey. Save it for The Neutral Zone, okay? Like I do.
Erm, no. I don't save criticism for human rights abuses for only one special forum. I don't care who the abusers are or if they happen to have significant domestic support.

Thanks for the info, though.
No prob.

Two Starfleets, eh? Of course...there may be incentive for keeping the "United Earth" Starfleet for the Federation. Guess we'll just have to see how the ENT books turn out.
Well, it's entirely plausible that the Federation Starfleet grew out of the UE Starfleet, along with growing out of the Andorian Imperial Guard and Vulcan and Tellarite space forces. But it by definition has to be a new legal entity. Armed forces serve the state they are owned by. Now, we've seen plenty of examples of Starfleet ships in the 23rd and 24th Centuries being called "Federation starships." They can't be Federation starships if they're owned by United Earth, just like the aircraft carrier United States Ship Enterprise CVN-65 couldn't call itself a United States Ship if it was actually owned by and in the service of, say, the Massachusetts State Navy.

Besides, if we're bringing in the novels, the novel Articles of the Federation by Keith RA DeCandido established definitively that the Federation Starfleet is a separate legal entity from the United Earth Starfleet, one that was founded when the Federation was and that grew out of the UE Starfleet.
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Old November 10 2008, 04:54 AM   #43
Rush Limborg
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Re: Section 31...

Erm, no. I don't save criticism for human rights abuses for only one special forum. I don't care who the abusers are or if they happen to have significant domestic support.
Understandable. Nonetheless, this is a Star Trek forum.

Under most circumstances, I'd be happy to bring up matters like that. However, as you are probably aware, every time I've done so here, I've had to pay, for "bringing up politics in a Star Trek forum."

There is, of course, a big debate on whether Club-Gitmo prisoners, POWs, and terrorists are entitled to the same rights granted U.S. Citizens. But as I said, this probably isn't the place for it.

Just thought I'd ensure that you don't go through the crap that I did....
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Old November 11 2008, 12:06 AM   #44
Alidar Jarok
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Re: Section 31...

Um, star trek people. Stay on topic.
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Old November 11 2008, 02:52 AM   #45
Rush Limborg
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Re: Section 31...

Um, star trek people. Stay on topic.
Gladly....
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