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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old October 31 2008, 09:38 PM   #46
Psion
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post

Actually, my only quibbles with the "new" uniforms fall into the stupid fabric thing, and the replacement of the gold details with silver ones.
I feel compelled to repeat myself on this issue:
I'm surprised no one has brought this up before, but current MARPAT U.S. Marines uniforms incorporate the Marines' Eagle Globe and Anchor (EGA) at regular intervals throughout the uniform fabric. The emblems are only 1/4" in size, aren't easy to see against the camouflage, and aren't repeated at the density seen in the Trek costumes, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the inspiration for the patterns in the new movie.
If we accept that the delta is the service-wide emblem, then I'm not sure I find anything objectionable in the new fabric texture. This could be a style thing of Starfleet or a security issue, making it harder for an impostor to simply throw on black pants and a colored tunic and try to blend in. Someone's bound to notice something's not quite right with that science crewman they don't recognize when they get close enough to notice his tunic is unpatterned.

Even if the delta isn't service-wide, but Enterprise-specific, the same could hold true. Each ship's quartermaster would equip new crew with official uniforms for that ship as they come aboard.

Personally, I've never seen the pull-over tunics to look terribly much like a uniform. When that Air Force officer interrogating Kirk in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" asks if Kirk's wearing some kind of uniform, I usually just smile and shake my head. The only thing that begins to look vaguely like a uniform on Kirk's attire are his captain's stripes. Everything else looks like leisure-wear to me. Unfortunately, these new outfits don't resolve my little problem. Were I in charge, I'd likely go with department-specific shirt, with Starfleet iconography and nametag on the chest, rank on the sleeves, and ship-specific patch with department enhancement on the shoulder.

But I'll let it slide for now.
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Old October 31 2008, 10:20 PM   #47
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

Can someone post pics of Kelvin plz ?? thanx
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Old October 31 2008, 10:31 PM   #48
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

mic of orion wrote: View Post
Can someone post pics of Kelvin plz ?? thanx


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Old October 31 2008, 10:36 PM   #49
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

^^

thanx

WOW, awesome, it seems USS Kelvin is under attack, from some kind of missiles.
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Old October 31 2008, 11:01 PM   #50
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

mic of orion wrote: View Post
^^

thanx

WOW, awesome, it seems USS Kelvin is under attack, from some kind of missiles.
...or fighters.
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Old October 31 2008, 11:05 PM   #51
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

JuanBOOlio wrote: View Post
mic of orion wrote: View Post
^^

thanx

WOW, awesome, it seems USS Kelvin is under attack, from some kind of missiles.
...or fighters.

yep, or fighters, can't really tell, but impact points tell me it could be some sort of missile, well, we'll see, I am definitely going to see this movie in my local cinema
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Old November 1 2008, 10:01 PM   #52
Cary L. Brown
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post

Actually, my only quibbles with the "new" uniforms fall into the stupid fabric thing, and the replacement of the gold details with silver ones.
I feel compelled to repeat myself on this issue:
I'm surprised no one has brought this up before, but current MARPAT U.S. Marines uniforms incorporate the Marines' Eagle Globe and Anchor (EGA) at regular intervals throughout the uniform fabric. The emblems are only 1/4" in size, aren't easy to see against the camouflage, and aren't repeated at the density seen in the Trek costumes, but I wouldn't be surprised if this was the inspiration for the patterns in the new movie.
Just for the record, I did read what you said (and it was worth saying). I think that the MARPAT thing is also extraordinarily goofy, too, though. It doesn't add anything practical, and the line I've heard from people in-service about that sort of thing (the other services have been talking about it as well) is that it's the inevitable result of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy... and that they think that the new uniform style is, well.. "FAAABulous."
If we accept that the delta is the service-wide emblem, then I'm not sure I find anything objectionable in the new fabric texture. This could be a style thing of Starfleet or a security issue, making it harder for an impostor to simply throw on black pants and a colored tunic and try to blend in. Someone's bound to notice something's not quite right with that science crewman they don't recognize when they get close enough to notice his tunic is unpatterned.
I get your point. It's just that the idea seems so... well, so over-the-top... that it does nothing but make me wince when I see it.

What next? Everyone gets little diamond-encrusted starfleet-arrowhead caps on their teeth for that extra Starfleet "bling?"
Even if the delta isn't service-wide, but Enterprise-specific, the same could hold true. Each ship's quartermaster would equip new crew with official uniforms for that ship as they come aboard.
Sure... if there was any practical benefit to this, I might buy that as a valid argument. But honestly, I see nothing of any kind being added to the uniform by virtue of this. It's there for "style" but for no other purpose.

And from a film-making standpoint... it wastes the studio's money on something which, at best, will never be noticed. As I've said before, if the audience actually notices this, that will only mean that the storytelling has left them so bored that they have nothing better to do than look at fabric patterns. NOT something that would bode well for the film.
Personally, I've never seen the pull-over tunics to look terribly much like a uniform. When that Air Force officer interrogating Kirk in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" asks if Kirk's wearing some kind of uniform, I usually just smile and shake my head. The only thing that begins to look vaguely like a uniform on Kirk's attire are his captain's stripes. Everything else looks like leisure-wear to me. Unfortunately, these new outfits don't resolve my little problem.
Well, the way I've always chosen to look at it is that the uniforms we saw all the time in Trek were one uniform option, not the only uniform available. During the first season, we saw a lot of other variations, but they eventually (mainly for cost reasons, I assume) stopped using variations and other uniform types, and everyone just wore their velour-of-the-day.

In an equivalent to real, modern military uniforms, I'd say that the stuff we normally saw our heroes wearing was the "Class B" uniform.... the casual, daily-wear uniform. This would be typical for on-ship duty.

There'd also be a variety of "class C" uniforms... depending on the job. Engineering jumpsuits, for instance, would be a "class C" uniform, while security guys would have a very different (combat-oriented) class-C. The class - C is the "working wear" uniform.

There'd also be a "class A" uniform. This would be something more along the lines of what I think you're thinking... and much more closely related to the ST-TWOK style uniform (which is really impractical for daily wear, IMHO).

To compare the Army "Class A" and "Class B" uniforms, see this site. It's a PDF file.

http://swc2.hccs.edu/texasmedicalran...ss-A-and-B.pdf

The TOS uniform is equivalent to a "Class B," I think.

Of course, there's also the "dress uniform" which is NOT equivalent to a "class A" uniform. I had both dress blues and dress whites when I was in the service... while my Class A was Army green. The "dress jacket" worn by Kirk and company a few times is more like that than like a class-A design.
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Old November 2 2008, 12:02 AM   #53
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

Personally, I've never seen the pull-over tunics to look terribly much like a uniform. When that Air Force officer interrogating Kirk in "Tomorrow is Yesterday" asks if Kirk's wearing some kind of uniform, I usually just smile and shake my head. The only thing that begins to look vaguely like a uniform on Kirk's attire are his captain's stripes. Everything else looks like leisure-wear to me. Unfortunately, these new outfits don't resolve my little problem. Were I in charge, I'd likely go with department-specific shirt, with Starfleet iconography and nametag on the chest, rank on the sleeves, and ship-specific patch with department enhancement on the shoulder.
Well, they weren't supposed to look like contemporary uniforms (or as is less popular in sci-fi, 19th century European military attire with futuristic or creative flourishes) but like something plausible for a para-military, primarily scientific organization in a future of comparatively fantastic technology. Compared to Enterprise's 20th century exterminator or auto mechanic aesthetic, they're far more successful in this regard to me. I do wish the "gold" shirts were more of an olive color, though, as I believe that would have conveyed "uniform" more strongly, as well as done the whole red/blue/green thing.
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Old November 2 2008, 12:09 AM   #54
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

Basil wrote: View Post
... Enterprise's 20th century exterminator or auto mechanic aesthetic ...
Nah, they looked like astronauts:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...htlessness.jpg
http://esamultimedia.esa.int/images/IP/ASTRONAUTS.jpg
http://www.jaxa.jp/press/nasda/2001/...24_hoshide.jpg
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/langley/...onauts0920.jpg
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Old November 2 2008, 03:31 AM   #55
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
Yeah, that's my point. If I want to watch something that looks so boring, I'll tune in to Discover and see exterminators, auto mechanics, and 20th century astronauts. But I'd prefer sci-fi show actual imagination, even in costuming.
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Old November 2 2008, 03:38 AM   #56
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Just for the record, I did read what you said (and it was worth saying). I think that the MARPAT thing is also extraordinarily goofy, too, though. It doesn't add anything practical, and the line I've heard from people in-service about that sort of thing (the other services have been talking about it as well) is that it's the inevitable result of the "don't ask, don't tell" policy... and that they think that the new uniform style is, well.. "FAAABulous." I get your point. It's just that the idea seems so... well, so over-the-top... that it does nothing but make me wince when I see it.
Cary, let me start off with how much I enjoy arguing with you; you're consistently rational and well-informed and even when I disagree with you, it's always fun. On this issue, I don't think we're quite going to be able to see eye-to-eye. The emblem-texture is an interesting idea, one that I'm not completely sold on, but is representative of the sort of over-the-top design textile technology that we see as goofy today, but probably dirt-cheap and easy by the 23rd century. Most of today's fabrics are made by weaving threads of one or more materials together, produced in vast batches, and sold in bolts. Whenever you look closely, you always see the weave, tight or loose. It's boring after a while, and I'd like to see something better come along. In "The Making of Star Trek", the uniforms were supposedly some kind of recycled material ... broken down after use and cleaned at the molecular level before being reassembled into something clean for the next use. Naturally no one then could afford to make a representative uniform on a TV budget. These days, I suppose you could make rubberized uniforms or maybe use silicone, for more flexibility, but it wouldn't be very comfortable. (Hmmm ... I should try spraying some "Dip-it" on an old t-shirt ....)

In the absence of that, this approach borrows from a new trend in real military wear to reflect, perhaps iconographically, the existence of new materials technology better than velour ever could. I'm sure if we looked closely at the actual, on-set shirts, we'd still see a weave, but the texture of the emblem suggests an unusual process that, while almost sure to become commonplace within ten years, is still new today.

Crap ... I just had a vision of a world populated with people wearing logo-textured sports clothes. Nike swooshes, NBA basketballs, Pepsi waves, etc. And I have zero doubt we're going to start seeing a lot of this real soon.

What next? Everyone gets little diamond-encrusted starfleet-arrowhead caps on their teeth for that extra Starfleet "bling?"
That was one of my complaints about "Wrath of Kahn" ... the duplicate emblem on the belt just worsened those overwrought uniforms.


But honestly, I see nothing of any kind being added to the uniform by virtue of this. It's there for "style" but for no other purpose.
I think there is some benefit in the way of "branding" uniforms so that you know the uniforms are genuine. Just like the MARPAT initiative. But I'd also expect by the 23rd century that making such a pattern would be almost as easy as sneezing into a Kleenex. But there again ... if it's so easy to make fabrics that way, why not? Can't Starfleet Quartermaster Command have just a little sense of style? Not that I think a Starfleet emblem texture is especially stylish.

And from a film-making standpoint... it wastes the studio's money on something which, at best, will never be noticed. As I've said before, if the audience actually notices this, that will only mean that the storytelling has left them so bored that they have nothing better to do than look at fabric patterns. NOT something that would bode well for the film.
No, no, no! It isn't Abram's job to look at fabric patterns. He hired a costume designer for that job and he or she brought their experiences and prejudices to the table, showing Abrams designs and swatches until he saw something he liked, just like any other motion picture. And the more I think about this, the more I realize my prediction about textured fabrics might be closer than I first thought -- I think Paramount is planning to market Starfleet-textured tie-ins. Damnit, I just hope I look good in command-gold underoos.

Well, the way I've always chosen to look at it is that the uniforms we saw all the time in Trek were one uniform option, not the only uniform available. During the first season, we saw a lot of other variations, but they eventually (mainly for cost reasons, I assume) stopped using variations and other uniform types, and everyone just wore their velour-of-the-day.[Psion: Agreed!]

In an equivalent to real, modern military uniforms, I'd say that the stuff we normally saw our heroes wearing was the "Class B" uniform.... the casual, daily-wear uniform. This would be typical for on-ship duty.[Psion: Agreed!]

There'd also be a variety of "class C" uniforms... depending on the job. Engineering jumpsuits, for instance, would be a "class C" uniform, while security guys would have a very different (combat-oriented) class-C. The class - C is the "working wear" uniform.[Psion: Awesome! Like some of the attire we saw in ST:TMP]

There'd also be a "class A" uniform. This would be something more along the lines of what I think you're thinking... and much more closely related to the ST-TWOK style uniform (which is really impractical for daily wear, IMHO).
No, I'm thinking more of a class B uniform, but all I have are vague notions for something that looks more like a uniform, while being somewhat informal and comfortable. Let me nip off to the 23rd century for a bit, and I'll come back with better ideas. And thanks for the Class A and B uniforms link ... I loved it!

Basil wrote: View Post
Well, they weren't supposed to look like contemporary uniforms (or as is less popular in sci-fi, 19th century European military attire with futuristic or creative flourishes) but like something plausible for a para-military, primarily scientific organization in a future of comparatively fantastic technology. Compared to Enterprise's 20th century exterminator or auto mechanic aesthetic, they're far more successful in this regard to me. I do wish the "gold" shirts were more of an olive color, though, as I believe that would have conveyed "uniform" more strongly, as well as done the whole red/blue/green thing.
If they weren't supposed to look like uniforms, then why does that Air Force Major recognize Kirk's get-up as a uniform? Yes, the outfits are supposed to look casual and comfortable compared to modern services, but I think the old uniforms fall just a little bit short of their mark. I still like 'em more than the TWOK get-ups, though.

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
Yep! I really liked the Enterprise costumes. Right down to the shirt and ties on the admirals.
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Old November 2 2008, 04:10 AM   #57
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

SonicRanger wrote: View Post
Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
SonicRanger wrote: View Post
^^^

I think it is quite likely that the gold details didn't look good or stand out enough on-screen with the new yellow/gold/avocado command uniforms.

Besides, the Starfleet/Enterprise chevron was small and silver during The Cage, so a color change isn't a big deal.

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albu...thecage018.jpg
Must be another one of those "noncalibrated eyeballs" things... because that arrowhead, in that image, sure looks gold to me.
The outer edge is gold (where a black edge is during the series), and the interior is silvery/whitish. I'll see if I can find another pic...

EDIT:

Here it is in high-def:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...part1hd353.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...part1hd356.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...part2hd092.jpg
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x...part2hd096.jpg


Gold outer edge but silvery/white interior.
Actually, to me those all look very much the same... metallic gold threads, but sewn to the uniform using thread much the same color as the uniform.

Gold, when bright and polished, reflects much more lightly than when it's covered with that odd "aged" coating that things get, of course, but gold tends to remain brighter than other metals. Put a bright metallic gold (real gold, not the "gold paint" we sometimes think of!) under bright studio lamps and they'll reflect nearly white under certain circumstances.

So, to my eyes, I still see gold there. I think the only way that I'd be convinced (and likely that you guys would be convinced, I'm guessing) would be to inspect an original patch. Since that's not likely to happen, I guess we'll just have to disagree. But I see "gold" in those images. It's just a much shinier, brighter color than the dark gold of the tunic fabric.
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Old November 2 2008, 04:32 AM   #58
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

I think they could've made the gold uniforms closer to khaki. Just to make the crew look less like a bunch of people at a Superman fan club meeting.
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Old November 2 2008, 05:07 AM   #59
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

As for the Kelvin Uniforms....

I believe I read somewhere online that this movie has almost as large a Wardrobe Dept. as The Motion Picture had, if not bigger.

If this is correct, then is it not likely to assume, that there will be different uniform's for all the time period's represented... Pre-Kirk Era (USS Kelvin and such)... Kirk Era (Academy and TOS)... and Post-Kirk Era (24th Century).
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Old November 2 2008, 03:13 PM   #60
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Re: The Kelvin's uniforms

mic of orion wrote: View Post
JuanBOOlio wrote: View Post
mic of orion wrote: View Post
^^

thanx

WOW, awesome, it seems USS Kelvin is under attack, from some kind of missiles.
...or fighters.

yep, or fighters, can't really tell, but impact points tell me it could be some sort of missile, well, we'll see, I am definitely going to see this movie in my local cinema
It's under attack by TOS canonistas.
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