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Old October 29 2008, 07:32 PM   #31
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Re: Buffy's Tom Lenk officially out of the closet

Caleuche wrote: View Post
(Not to say anything about the fact that the first chance the Angel writers got they turned him straight.)
You do realize that was not his first Angel episode, right?
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Old October 29 2008, 08:25 PM   #32
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Re: Buffy's Tom Lenk officially out of the closet

The Gill-Man wrote: View Post
You do realize that was not his first Angel episode, right?
Fair point. He was better used in his other episode (much better then on Buffy arguably.)
lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
Caleuche wrote: View Post
I always disliked the character of Andrew as I found it slightly homophobic in how everything about him was played for laughs. He was the guy who when the heroes were out fighting was hiding at home in his pinny and rubber gloves washing dishes. His obvious crushes on Warren/ Xander/ Spike were always used for cheap giggles. There was none of the respect that Willow/Tara got. They had character outside of their sexuality and their romantic life was always treated as seriously as any of the straight characters. So to be honest I find it slightly disturbing that a gay actor would so willingly contribute to such a stereotypical character.
Why can't you just accept that as his character? People like that do exist.
Yes and on television they exist more. The weak cowardly coded gay outnumbers the strong gay hero, what, a hundred to one? A thousand to one?
lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
[Besides, saying there's nothing else to his character but his gayness is totally inaccurate. He was never even explicitly stated as gay, for one thing - we only assumed based on heavy hints. Other than that, there was his nerdiness, his wanting to follow the crowd to belong, his growth from "nothing is real" comic book life to "things have consequences" real life. None of those are necessarily or stereotypically gay attributes.
He was a one note joke in a show that invited the audience to laugh at a guy who wasn't a 'real man' and to stop anyone being too offended he was given his crush on Warren and his implied gayness.
The stereotypical attributes I was refering to was his feyness, his weakness, his general pathetic nature (highlighted by his nerdiness), his inabilty to fight and his cowardy moments. Now given that Buffys mantra was to subvert sterotypes (A show about the cheerleader/girls saving the guys) this was near unforgiveable and very lazy writing.

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
[Joss has also depicted other kinds of gay men, like Larry, who was a jock and a fighter.
And a background character who was killed off far too early.
lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
[ And other kinds of lesbians, like Kennedy, who was a mouthy princess.
Who as horrible as she may be was never treated as a joke. She was also Willows second girlfriend. When did we see any of Buffy or Angels gay man/men with boyfriends?

lvsxy808 wrote: View Post
(Not to say anything about the fact that the first chance the Angel writers got they turned him straight.)
Also completely wrong. For one thing, the writers specified in the script that it should be boys and girls together that Andrew met at the door. I believe it was director's choice to eliminate the boys. And did it not occur to you that those girls might be Slayers under his command, and he was simply their chaperone? Can a guy not walk through a door with a girl without being labelled "straight" ?
Of course they can, and if it was the directors idea then sorry to the writers, but I believe Andrew actually says something along the lines of 'sometimes its time to try something new/different' (not the exact quote) and then walks off with the girls. I saw this as a suggestion that his implied gayness was only a phase and now he had grown up and matured (which was after all the whole theme of the episode) he had discovered girls. (And yes, I did assume them to be slayers, I also assumed the episode was impling he was sleeping with them.)

Last edited by Caleuche; October 29 2008 at 08:27 PM. Reason: Spelling.
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Old October 29 2008, 08:57 PM   #33
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Re: Buffy's Tom Lenk officially out of the closet

^^^Johnathan had all these characteristics as well and wasn't gay.

What gay character was on Angel?
Lorne was a demon and owner of a night club but it was never proven what his sexuality was one way or another. His flamboyance fit the type of job he was in much like many big city club owners who aren't gay.

It was also first believed Wesley (when he was on Buffy) acted gay, same for Giles due to their manerisims but they weren't, were they?

Joss did a good job showing ones mannerisms doesn't define ones sexuality. It is we the viewing audience that holds onto such stereotypes.
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Old October 29 2008, 09:37 PM   #34
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Re: Buffy's Tom Lenk officially out of the closet

exodus wrote: View Post
^^^Johnathan had all these characteristics as well and wasn't gay.
Yeah, but...well..you know..um..the fact is...err...

Damn it!

What gay character was on Angel?
There wasn't one which was kinda my point.
Lorne was a demon and owner of a night club but it was never proven what his sexuality was one way or another. His flamboyance fit the type of job he was in much like many big city club owners who aren't gay.
Another good point and I would like to add Lorne was rather awesome as well. He shot Linsey!
It was also first believed Wesley (when he was on Buffy) acted gay, same for Giles due to their manerisims but they weren't, were they?
No, they were English on an American show.
Joss did a good job showing ones mannerisms doesn't define ones sexuality. It is we the viewing audience that holds onto such stereotypes.
I still feel it was using those stereotypes that they implied Andrews sexuality which I felt was wrong.
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Old October 29 2008, 09:39 PM   #35
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Re: Buffy's Tom Lenk officially out of the closet

I'm only just remembering this now but in one of the issues of Season 8 hes in the middle of a game of strip poker with a lot of half naked really hot Slayers and isn't interested, you have to see the actual frame but the implication is clear. Thats set several months after his appearances in Angel.
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Old October 30 2008, 12:16 AM   #36
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Re: Buffy's Tom Lenk officially out of the closet

Caleuche wrote: View Post
exodus wrote: View Post
^^^Johnathan had all these characteristics as well and wasn't gay.
Yeah, but...well..you know..um..the fact is...err...

Damn it!

What gay character was on Angel?
There wasn't one which was kinda my point.

Another good point and I would like to add Lorne was rather awesome as well. He shot Linsey!
It was also first believed Wesley (when he was on Buffy) acted gay, same for Giles due to their manerisims but they weren't, were they?
No, they were English on an American show.
Joss did a good job showing ones mannerisms doesn't define ones sexuality. It is we the viewing audience that holds onto such stereotypes.
I still feel it was using those stereotypes that they implied Andrews sexuality which I felt was wrong.
Sorry, you already admitted that Johnathan & Lorne made that point moot.
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Old October 30 2008, 07:14 PM   #37
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Re: Buffy's Tom Lenk officially out of the closet

Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
I'm only just remembering this now but in one of the issues of Season 8 hes in the middle of a game of strip poker with a lot of half naked really hot Slayers and isn't interested, you have to see the actual frame but the implication is clear. Thats set several months after his appearances in Angel.
I need to buy the TPB when it's collected....
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Old October 30 2008, 07:18 PM   #38
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Re: Buffy's Tom Lenk officially out of the closet

Lullaby wrote: View Post
Chemahkuu wrote: View Post
I'm only just remembering this now but in one of the issues of Season 8 hes in the middle of a game of strip poker with a lot of half naked really hot Slayers and isn't interested, you have to see the actual frame but the implication is clear. Thats set several months after his appearances in Angel.
I need to buy the TPB when it's collected....
The first 2 TPBs are already out, the third is out within the next month or so.
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Old October 30 2008, 07:22 PM   #39
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Re: Buffy's Tom Lenk officially out of the closet

That scene is in about issue 2 or 3. It was collected ages ago in the first TPB "Long Way Home" (1-5)
Vol.2 "No Future For You" (6-10) is also out, and Vol.3 "Wolves at the Gate" (11-15) should be out November 19
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Old October 30 2008, 08:36 PM   #40
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Re: Buffy's Tom Lenk officially out of the closet

Captain Craig wrote: View Post
Tom Lenk as gay was nearly as obvious but not quite as obvious as Clay.
I resemble that remark.
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Old October 31 2008, 04:13 AM   #41
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Re: Buffy's Tom Lenk officially out of the closet

exodus wrote: View Post
Gojirob wrote: View Post
Caleuche wrote: View Post
I always disliked the character of Andrew as I found it slightly homophobic in how everything about him was played for laughs. He was the guy who when the heroes were out fighting was hiding at home in his pinny and rubber gloves washing dishes. His obvious crushes on Warren/ Xander/ Spike were always used for cheap giggles. There was none of the respect that Willow/Tara got. They had character outside of their sexuality and their romantic life was always treated as seriously as any of the straight characters. So to be honest I find it slightly disturbing that a gay actor would so willingly contribute to such a stereotypical character.

(Not to say anything about the fact that the first chance the Angel writers got they turned him straight.)
Andrew was a weak character no matter his preferences. To me, he was JW's version of Gollum, albeit one who survived when he maybe should not have. Xander's last comment about Anya can be seen as being far more snide towards Andrew than her. His devotion to the heartless Warren was sad, whether in friendship or love, and he killed the only person who could stand to be around him (ala Smeagle's cousin). If TL had been directed to speak in a less stereotypical way (my brother had to point him out in Transformers) Andrew might have worked better. Everything in BTVS S7 was more than slightly overdone, in MO.
I disagree.

Andrew was the next generation of Xander, despite whatever his sexuality was. Xander had grown up and his humor was becoming more jaded due to his experances. Andrew replaced that, by bringing back whimsy to the show in a season that most needed it. Xander couldn't even cry for Anya upon her death, while Andrew did.
I think both Gojirob and Caleuche have interesting points here.

Andrew always has reminded me of a Gollum-style character; particularly with his arc in s7. In some ways, he's also an analogue of Spike and Willow in season seven (trying to atone for their sins), but presented in a more comical manner. His killing of Jonathan was particularly 'Smeagol and Deagol' like. The LOTR reference even gets a nod in Angel, when Andrew compares the resurrected Spike to Gandalf the White.

He is also in some respects a replacement for the early Xander of seasons 1-3. Whereas season 6 and 7 Xander is more mature due to his life experiences, Andrew gives us a slightly more whimsical character again.

See, I loved Buffy. All of it. Whether intentional or not, the story arcs eventually wove together very well indeed, so it felt like things were planned out all along. Season six is still controversial. There seems to be little middle ground. Some loved it for the darker edge and greater character focus; and some missed the lighter tone, and disliked the darkness and depression. I belong to the former camp. Season 6 was about the characters moreso than any of the other seasons in my opinion.

Season 7 returned some of the earlier humour and camp to the show (thanks mainly to Andrew). I loved s7, I still don't get why some hate it.
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