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Old October 22 2008, 06:00 AM   #16
LutherSloan
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Re: Section 31...

Yes, it was revealed that people like Admiral Cartwright, Colonel West, and Valeris were at least working in concert with a Section 31 operation.

Although, it makes less sense for it to be an S31 operation, seeing that they tried to end the Dominion War more quickly with the Founder Virus, and wanted to delay a war between Earth and Romulus for as long as possible.

The entire Insurrection story seemed like a perfect S31 operation as well, and it was later revealed in a ST novel that this was the case.

IIRC, at first on ENT the organization was just referred to as 'the agency', but we later learned that this was clearly Section 31, after Harris mentioned that it was in the United Earth Charter Article 14, Section 31 (or was it the Starfleet Charter?).
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Old October 22 2008, 11:29 AM   #17
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Section 31...

Mr. Spook 7 wrote: View Post
...but they do... even in the US. CIA, NSA.. and even more ominous groups DO exist.
Those groups are nowhere near the level of Section 31.
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Old October 22 2008, 12:05 PM   #18
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Re: Section 31...

Shelley's Axe wrote: View Post
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Old October 22 2008, 02:37 PM   #19
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Section 31...

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Mr. Spook 7 wrote: View Post
...but they do... even in the US. CIA, NSA.. and even more ominous groups DO exist.
Those groups are nowhere near the level of Section 31.
Thank you. I was just getting ready to have to explain that the comparison with them is more like Starfleet Intelligence: there IS government oversight on them, whether some here would like to admit it or not.
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Old October 22 2008, 02:46 PM   #20
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Re: Section 31...

Generally speaking, I'd like to argue that virtually none of the shadow jobs in Star Trek are the doing of Section 31 - not even most of those that S31 claims are its doing.

Outsorcing evil to a bunch of others, to a cigarette-smoking, well-manicured cabal , is both extremely unrealistic and dramatically extremely unsatisfactory. Evil is us. We are the ones who travel the paved road to hell. And some of us like to take credit for doing the paving - but the good intentions of S31 need not really be the ones that result in the evil consequences. Those consequences may come to be without conscious effort on the part of devious masterminds, and indeed usually do.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old October 22 2008, 03:37 PM   #21
superstring01
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Re: Section 31...

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
So was that whole thing in ST 6.

And Admiral Pressman was obviously Section 31 as well. It's not in a novel that I'm aware of, but...he just *acts* like Section 31.
That job was too messy for Section 31. Section 31 is clean and, for better or worse, wanted some sort of UFP dominated peace.

The explosion of Praxis that brought about the peace is more like a Section 31 job, not the botched and mangled job that attempted to undo the peace.

~String
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Old October 22 2008, 07:15 PM   #22
flandry84
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Re: Section 31...

I've always thought that Capt.Ben Maxwell was acting on info supplied by 31.Trouble is,now that we the audience know of their existence,it is tempting to retro-fit them into too many happenings in the Trek world.



Funnily,somebody mentioned Government oversight on various real-world intel agencies....then somebody else mentioned the outsourcing of torture etc.
Hard to square that circle,isn't it?
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Old October 22 2008, 09:34 PM   #23
The Wormhole
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Re: Section 31...

Ethros wrote: View Post
Been a while since I watched the relevant eps of ENT. Is the group actually referred to as "Section 31" in those eps?

Not exactly. While talking to his Section 31 friend, Reed makes vague referances to "your section" always with an emphasis on section. And the operative did tell Archer to look up Section 31 of the Starfleet Charter to learn more about him.

They are referred to as Section 31 by name in startrek.com's production reports for Demons and Terra Prime.
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Old October 22 2008, 09:45 PM   #24
Sheliak
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Re: Section 31...

Who were the Tal Shiar in Ancient Rome?
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Old October 22 2008, 10:45 PM   #25
Ethros
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Re: Section 31...

Cheers for the info


From the Memory Alpha article- http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Section_31

In 2358, Captain Erik Pressman of the USS Pegasus was assigned the task of testing an illegal interphase cloaking device which, according to William T. Riker, had been developed by a "secret section of Starfleet Security". (ENT: "These Are the Voyages...")

Although Section 31 was an invention of Deep Space Nine writers Bradley Thompson and David Weddle in 1998, and therefore could not possibly have been intended by the writers of "The Pegasus" in 1994, it is likely that Riker's line in 2005's "These Are the Voyages..." was meant to suggest Section 31's involvement.
Interesting
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Old October 22 2008, 10:57 PM   #26
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Re: Section 31...

Mr. Spook 7 wrote: View Post
...but they do... even in the US. CIA, NSA.. and even more ominous groups DO exist.
The Central Intelligence Agency and the National Security Agency are answerable to the President of the United States and to special Congressional oversight committees that also control their budgets.

Hardly the same thing as Section 31, which is essentially an organized crime organization that uses patriotism to justify its criminal actions.
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Old October 23 2008, 12:46 AM   #27
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Section 31...

flandry84 wrote: View Post
I've always thought that Capt.Ben Maxwell was acting on info supplied by 31.Trouble is,now that we the audience know of their existence,it is tempting to retro-fit them into too many happenings in the Trek world.
I was always under the impression that Maxwell was totally freelancing. He probably noticed something in Cardassian troop movements or got sensor readings--all by his little lonesome.
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Old October 23 2008, 02:39 AM   #28
Sheliak
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Re: Section 31...

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
flandry84 wrote: View Post
I've always thought that Capt.Ben Maxwell was acting on info supplied by 31.Trouble is,now that we the audience know of their existence,it is tempting to retro-fit them into too many happenings in the Trek world.
I was always under the impression that Maxwell was totally freelancing. He probably noticed something in Cardassian troop movements or got sensor readings--all by his little lonesome.
Perhaps.
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Old October 23 2008, 04:49 AM   #29
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Section 31...

Dude was paranoid. If it hadn't actually BEEN staring him in the face when he went looking for it, he probably would've manufactured it.

But as we know, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.
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Old October 23 2008, 05:16 AM   #30
Strider
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Re: Section 31...

Timo wrote: View Post
Generally speaking, I'd like to argue that virtually none of the shadow jobs in Star Trek are the doing of Section 31 - not even most of those that S31 claims are its doing.

Outsorcing evil to a bunch of others, to a cigarette-smoking, well-manicured cabal , is both extremely unrealistic and dramatically extremely unsatisfactory. Evil is us. We are the ones who travel the paved road to hell. And some of us like to take credit for doing the paving - but the good intentions of S31 need not really be the ones that result in the evil consequences. Those consequences may come to be without conscious effort on the part of devious masterminds, and indeed usually do.

Timo Saloniemi
Yeah but look at the alternative. The writers of Deep Space Nine were looking to inject the morally perfect Federation of The Next Generation with some reality in a way that creatively didn't compromise what had already been established. Thus, with Section 31 we learn that the supposed necessary evils of building and maintaining an empire are done quietly, often with the collusion of Starfleet officers and officials. It's a decent work around in my opinion, at least for a tv show.
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