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Old October 22 2008, 01:49 AM   #16
Ru ru, chu
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

Perhaps the 'turning back time' in ONE cut of Superman II results in the OTHER one? (Meaning, at the end of the Donner cut, time is reset and the new timeline is the Lester cut. Or maybe the other way around) So both of them are 'canon', in a way.
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Old October 22 2008, 04:03 AM   #17
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

Indysolo wrote: View Post
After viewing this, one gets the sense that while Lester was faithful and comfortable using Donner material, Michael Thau and his team were extremely disrespectful towards anything filmed by Lester. The best scenes in The Donner Cut are the ones lifted relatively intact from the released version of Superman II. That includes the moon sequence and the diner sequence, not ironically, both were filmed by Donner. But anything else from that movie filmed by Lester is re-edited in such a hasty fashion, that it now makes Lester seem like a ham fisted know nothing. While Lester honored the Donner material, Lester here is thrown under the bus. [...] They should have used more of Lester's footage, but probably had too much pride to admit that.
I agree. And while on the subject, the more I think about it, the more upset I get with Michael Thau's hatchet job on Lester & the Salkinds in all the making of documentaries. He accepts the word of Donner & co. as gospel, disregarding the fact that their version of events doesn't really make sense. I'm far more inclined to believe the Salkinds, who say that it was Donner's choice to not come back to finish Superman II. Or rather, Donner put an unacceptable condition on his returning (i.e. demanding that the Salkinds fire Pierre Spengler) that the Salkinds were unwilling to fulfill.
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Old October 22 2008, 05:18 AM   #18
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

So, what is supposed to happen at the end of the first film? Is that where the magic kiss is used? To bring Lois back to life?
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Old October 22 2008, 06:40 AM   #19
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

Sorry to tell you this guys, but when I originally saw the documentary that came with the DVD for The Richard Donner Cut, it was Donner who wanted his creative consultant Tom Mankiewicz to decide whether to go with "the kiss ending" where Lois forgets everything or to turn back time as in Superman: The Movie.

Tom Mankiewicz decided to go with the turn back the time ending (again), because in his opinion to Donner, it is Superman who should be kissing Lois at the end and not Clark Kent. So, that is why we endedup with the turn the time ending for The Donner Cut, thus messing up the entire narrative of said film in the process.
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Old October 22 2008, 07:02 AM   #20
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

My dream cut of Superman II would be to use the Donner Cut, but then have the movie end on the somber note of Superman dropping Lois off at her apartment, and eliminate everything after that (or rather, cut immediately to Superman flying off into space, and cue the credits). No reset button in which Lois forgets that she knows Superman's secret identity. Any such reset button is kind of a cheat, IMHO. Sure, it screws up the continuity of the subsequent movies, but who cares about the subsequent movies?
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Old October 22 2008, 07:37 AM   #21
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

theenglish wrote: View Post
So, what is supposed to happen at the end of the first film? Is that where the magic kiss is used? To bring Lois back to life?
Lois was not supposed to die originally at the end of STM.

BTW, here is a YouTube video I came up with (that someone else assembled) that shows how the Lois situation could be handled.

Neil
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Old October 22 2008, 08:09 AM   #22
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

theenglish wrote: View Post
So, what is supposed to happen at the end of the first film? Is that where the magic kiss is used? To bring Lois back to life?
IIRC, the original ending for the first film has Superman prevent one of the nukes from going off on Earth by throwing them in to space. I don't think Lois was ever supposed to be killed.

That nuke then allows Zod and co to escape from the Phantom Zone, completely replacing the entire Eiffel Tower sequence from the Lester cut.

The reverse time ending was always supposed to be the ending for Superman II but the pressure on Donner to get the first film finished (and to stop spending the Salkinds' money) some meant that he ended up using it for the first movie instead.
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Old October 22 2008, 08:45 AM   #23
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

While I know that the Donner Cut will never be a complete movie I prefer it over Lester's version. I really loved how the Donner cut included all the extended Jor-El scenes and cut out nearly all of Lester's camp.

But the ending for the Donner cut felt REALLY sloppy. I agree with chrisspringob that they should have had Lois still remember everything and ended it with the scene of Superman over Earth. There would have been nothing wrong with Lois knowing the secret at the end of the second movie. That's what we call character development. Who the heck cares about Superman IV anyway?
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Old October 22 2008, 10:53 AM   #24
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

The problem is that the big chunks of Donner's version were unfilmed when he was let go (and I seriously doubt the Salkinds take on that), and they'd already decided they'd have to rethink the ending when they came back to finish II, which obviously didn't happen.

I look at the Donner cut as sort of a historical artifact, a partial reconstruction of what was intended, to give you an idea of what the film was supposed to be like. I think, perhaps, the problem is that it was released like it was a complete alternate cut, instead of the incomplete artifact it is. I'm not going to deny the editing is sloppy and other faults of the storytelling, but the point was to show what Donner wanted, a style mostly incompatible with Lester's.

Personally, I find Lester's version of Superman II unwatchable for its broadness and its own sloppiness (you want continuity errors, it's full of them) and its bad taste.
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Old October 22 2008, 10:59 AM   #25
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

^Yeah, I somehow doubt Donner would have used footage from screentests if he'd had a choice.

Watching the documentaries on the DVDs, the Salkind's don't come off at all well. The only people who come off worse are the Golan Globus guys who took over for Superman IV when they bought the rights from the Salkinds.

Strangely, I got the same vibe from the various financier people during the Dangerous Days documentary film about Blade Runner.
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Old October 22 2008, 02:30 PM   #26
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

I liked it as an alternate glimpse. The BOBW would include a careful edit of both versions. The only problem Lester's version had was that it went from deadly serious to very silly camp. I would also at least look at some scenes cut but used for TV broadcasts, like the PZers killing that kid from a distance. But it would prolly look even worse than the cellophane S.

But keep the workable humor. I mean, was the movie irreprably harmed by 'Excuse me, General....' ?
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Old October 22 2008, 02:49 PM   #27
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

The Donner Cut is an interesting exercise, but its just too incomplete and the time-turning thing AGAIn just kills the ending. Yes yes i know the whole backstory, was the original ending of the first two movies, blah blah blah, it's still fuckin' stupid.
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Old October 23 2008, 01:41 AM   #28
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

Gojirob wrote: View Post
I liked it as an alternate glimpse. The BOBW would include a careful edit of both versions. The only problem Lester's version had was that it went from deadly serious to very silly camp. I would also at least look at some scenes cut but used for TV broadcasts, like the PZers killing that kid from a distance. But it would prolly look even worse than the cellophane S.

But keep the workable humor. I mean, was the movie irreprably harmed by 'Excuse me, General....' ?
I agree with you on almost every point. I am surprised that no one has done a Phantom Edit style cut from the available versions. I would love to see the two films reworked exactly like you are suggesting.
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Old October 23 2008, 02:27 AM   #29
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

My ideal cut would be pretty much exactly what is in the Lester Cut except I would swap out Lara with Jor-El for the Fortress of Solitude stuff and I would go with some of the small trims that the Donner Cut made to the campier bits of Lester's footage. Like it or not, the Lester Cut is simply a more complete version of the movie. The Paris opening is exactly the kind of high energy action sequence that a movie like this should start with. The magic kiss is kind of a lame ending but it's better than turning back time so far that the entire movie never even happened. And the campier bits of General Zod's performance are exactly what has made the character such an icon over the last 28 years. "KNEEL before Zod!"
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Old October 23 2008, 04:01 AM   #30
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Re: Superman 2-Donner cut

I liked it but I hated the cop-out of an ending.

Christopher Reeves did his best acting in the deleted scenes with Brando I thought. The most interesting visual is when he's speaking to Jor-El. He's dressed like Clark Kent but he looks like Superman.
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