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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 30 2008, 02:41 PM   #46
Timo
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Not to mention that the Klingons would probably have more influence on the Federation immediately after the war than ever before. They had saved the Federation's bacon, after all. They could make all sorts of "reasonable" demands and expect them to be met.

I think it all would mostly depend on the wormhole, though. If it still works, any territory close to Bajor would be strategically important to all players. If the Prophets continue to ban all traffic, though (excluding Odo's mission of mercy and Kira's return flight), then both Romulans and Klingons would probably have much better targets for conquest than the ravaged lands of a has-been enemy far away from their home territory, and would readily use their de facto positions on former Cardassian turf as bargaining chips, buying until the last chip was gone.

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Old September 30 2008, 08:19 PM   #47
Renvar
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

^It could play out that way too. Either way, the Cardies former homelands are footing the bill. You could call it "diplomatic plundering."

As for Septimus III, we do have a shortage of information. However, even if the Klingons planned to slaughter the entire Eleventh Order outright, so what? They're Klingons. That's kind of what they are known for. Hell, they probably had their opera boys write several epics about the battle. It's not something they're going to be ashamed about, and it won't be something that can be used against them at the bargaining table.
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Old October 1 2008, 12:56 AM   #48
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Renvar wrote: View Post
^It could play out that way too. Either way, the Cardies former homelands are footing the bill. You could call it "diplomatic plundering."

As for Septimus III, we do have a shortage of information. However, even if the Klingons planned to slaughter the entire Eleventh Order outright, so what? They're Klingons. That's kind of what they are known for. Hell, they probably had their opera boys write several epics about the battle. It's not something they're going to be ashamed about, and it won't be something that can be used against them at the bargaining table.
Indeed. It's something that makes me a bit uncomfortable about the "cult of St. Martok" sometimes seen around these parts. The guy's a sensible, pragmatic Klingon... but he's still very much a Klingon, down to laughing and celebrating in the ruins of Cardassia Prime.
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Old October 1 2008, 05:15 AM   #49
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Renvar wrote: View Post
^It could play out that way too. Either way, the Cardies former homelands are footing the bill. You could call it "diplomatic plundering."

As for Septimus III, we do have a shortage of information. However, even if the Klingons planned to slaughter the entire Eleventh Order outright, so what? They're Klingons. That's kind of what they are known for. Hell, they probably had their opera boys write several epics about the battle. It's not something they're going to be ashamed about, and it won't be something that can be used against them at the bargaining table.
Of course the retort to THAT is, "I don't care WHAT your DNA structure is--that doesn't excuse the fact that you chose to commit an atrocity." The relativist Federation probably wouldn't have the stomach for such an argument, but the Cardassians strike me as absolutists from a moral/ethic standpoint and I bet you they would say it.
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Old October 1 2008, 06:05 AM   #50
Sisko4Life
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

I personally don't think the Cardassians were any worse than the Romulans or Klingons. They've just been victimized. Sure, they don't have the honor of Klingons or the morals of the Federation, but I think if the Klingons invaded Romulus and nearly conquered it the Romulans would pull off something shady like allying with the Dominion. Hell, they're more treacherous than the Cardassians. Aren't the Cardassians genetically xenophobic because they evolved from reptiles?
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Old October 1 2008, 06:25 AM   #51
Jono
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Of course the retort to THAT is, "I don't care WHAT your DNA structure is--that doesn't excuse the fact that you chose to commit an atrocity." The relativist Federation probably wouldn't have the stomach for such an argument, but the Cardassians strike me as absolutists from a moral/ethic standpoint and I bet you they would say it.
No proof it was an atrocity, no one ever says that the actions that Klingons took were wrong or unjust. Plus it was the Dominion that doomed the Eleventh to its fate by deciding to sacrifice them to tie up worthwhile Klingon divisions in capturing a strategically worthless planet. How much anger would the Cardassians direct at the Klingons and how much would they aim at the Dominion?

On that, since the Klingons captured the planet and since it was a Cardassian order's HQ it should be in Cardassian space. I'm sure after the Breen join the win at Chin'toka, Chin'toka is referred to as the alliance's only hold in Cardassian space. Looks like they forgot about the Klingons gains at Septimus.
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Old October 1 2008, 07:32 AM   #52
jealousblues
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Timo wrote: View Post
Not to mention that the Klingons would probably have more influence on the Federation immediately after the war than ever before. They had saved the Federation's bacon, after all. They could make all sorts of "reasonable" demands and expect them to be met.

I think it all would mostly depend on the wormhole, though. If it still works, any territory close to Bajor would be strategically important to all players. If the Prophets continue to ban all traffic, though (excluding Odo's mission of mercy and Kira's return flight), then both Romulans and Klingons would probably have much better targets for conquest than the ravaged lands of a has-been enemy far away from their home territory, and would readily use their de facto positions on former Cardassian turf as bargaining chips, buying until the last chip was gone.

Timo Saloniemi
I tend to agree but I think the Klingons wouldnt have too much power, I thought at one point they mentioned it would take the Klingons at least a decade to recover from the war (having taken the highest losses).

I also think once the Romulans had gotten territory there would be no way to get them out.
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Old October 1 2008, 04:01 PM   #53
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

rofeta wrote: View Post
Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
Of course the retort to THAT is, "I don't care WHAT your DNA structure is--that doesn't excuse the fact that you chose to commit an atrocity." The relativist Federation probably wouldn't have the stomach for such an argument, but the Cardassians strike me as absolutists from a moral/ethic standpoint and I bet you they would say it.
No proof it was an atrocity, no one ever says that the actions that Klingons took were wrong or unjust. Plus it was the Dominion that doomed the Eleventh to its fate by deciding to sacrifice them to tie up worthwhile Klingon divisions in capturing a strategically worthless planet. How much anger would the Cardassians direct at the Klingons and how much would they aim at the Dominion?
I'd say they both get the blame: one for setting it up and the other for carrying it out in such an extreme manner.
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Old October 3 2008, 09:16 AM   #54
Jono
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

^ I guess no matter how the battle actually went down, whether it was a highly honourable ordeal or an atrocity, those who lost friends or family would place the blame only on the group (Klingons) that did the actual killing.
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Old October 3 2008, 11:15 AM   #55
Timo
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

However, they might not be allowed to voice their objections. After all, Klingons were good guys and Cardassians were bad guys in the war, from the point of view of those who won - so it would not be possible for the losers to complain about their losses, any more than it was possible for the Germans or the Japanese to mourn their losses after WWII.

It's not known whether the Cardassians inflicted major casualties on the Federation as such in the war; probably not. Nevertheless, if postwar Cardassia complained of something the Klingons did, the likely reaction of the Federation would be to say "you only got what you deserved", as there would be major UFP displeasure over the fact that Cardassian actions had made the war possible in the first place.

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Old October 3 2008, 02:23 PM   #56
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Timo wrote: View Post
However, they might not be allowed to voice their objections. After all, Klingons were good guys and Cardassians were bad guys in the war, from the point of view of those who won - so it would not be possible for the losers to complain about their losses, any more than it was possible for the Germans or the Japanese to mourn their losses after WWII.

It's not known whether the Cardassians inflicted major casualties on the Federation as such in the war; probably not. Nevertheless, if postwar Cardassia complained of something the Klingons did, the likely reaction of the Federation would be to say "you only got what you deserved", as there would be major UFP displeasure over the fact that Cardassian actions had made the war possible in the first place.
Dukat's unilateral actions made the war possible. We do not even know what percentage of the Cardassian people, if we could somehow get a poll where everybody would feel comfortable reporting their honest opinions, would have backed that alliance.

And who says the Germans and Japanese had no right to mourn the people that the monstrous dictators in charge of their country drafted as cannon fodder? Not every person wearing an enemy uniform was necessarily sympathetic to that political platform--though of course a good number were.

At least in modern society, nations have been called to account for their soldiers' actions even in wars where they were the victors. Had people taken the attitude you describe of "tough, you brought it on yourselves," I don't think we would've had the controversies over Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib, or Haditha (the latter being an action where civilians were killed, the former two involving actual enemy combatants)--or perhaps most aptly, controversy over whether the bomb should've been dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Given this, I would say there is at least precedent for such a complaint to be considered.
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Old October 16 2008, 02:55 AM   #57
Marie1
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

In the novels, when it talks about the parts of Cardassia that are under various protectorates... is that a sort of aid/policing... do we know the details of that? In the novels, I think the Fed... or something other org. was helping Cardassia, cuz wasn't Keiko O'Brien helping? She wasn't SF... but...
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Old October 16 2008, 06:11 AM   #58
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

I'd like to HOPE that none of the other powers are flat out RULING Cardassia...to do so would be to stoke the fires on a future grudge.
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Old October 18 2008, 12:01 AM   #59
Marie1
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Nerys Dukat wrote: View Post
I'd like to HOPE that none of the other powers are flat out RULING Cardassia...to do so would be to stoke the fires on a future grudge.
I have a dumb question that was probably answered in a book or the series... but how many planets were affected by the Dominion's attempted destruction of Cardassia? They fell back to Cardassian space... but wouldn't most of the available ships and troops be in the air fighting? I thought that Garak and co. were on Cardassia prime at the time- so how many planets were affected? It seems ridiculous in the middle of a battle to divert ships, resources and troops to various planets for an extermination.
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Old October 18 2008, 06:11 AM   #60
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Post-DS9 Cardassia

Orbital bombardment could probably be carried out with relatively few ships, I would think. I mean, look at the devastation a single nuke can do, in our world--just imagine the yield of a quantum torpedo.

(Also, as an example, remember the Xindi attack on Earth in the 22nd century.)
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