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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

View Poll Results: Grade "Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night"
Excellent 105 69.08%
Above Average 35 23.03%
Average 8 5.26%
Below Average 2 1.32%
Poor 2 1.32%
Voters: 152. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 6 2008, 12:44 PM   #151
Dayton3
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

[quote=Christopher;2143779]
You seem to be forgetting that the Borg have thousands and thousands of cubes, and a total lack of reluctance to sacrifice their forces. Even if it comes down to a war of attrition, the Borg have the obvious advantage.

quote]

But the characters in the book have no way of knowing that these first 11 cubes are only a lead up to an all out invasion.

We the readers know because of information released regarding upcoming books.

None of the Starfleet personnel should know what we know except perhaps for Picard.

For all everyone else knows, the 11 Cubes were the sum total of the Borg attack and all is right with the galaxy again.
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Old October 6 2008, 02:03 PM   #152
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Dayton3 wrote: View Post
But the characters in the book have no way of knowing that these first 11 cubes are only a lead up to an all out invasion.
You did read Greater Than the Sum, as I recall, so you should know better. The Borg out-and-out told the Federation that they were going to be annihilated.
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Old October 6 2008, 02:37 PM   #153
Dayton3
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Christopher wrote: View Post
Dayton3 wrote: View Post
But the characters in the book have no way of knowing that these first 11 cubes are only a lead up to an all out invasion.
You did read Greater Than the Sum, as I recall, so you should know better. The Borg out-and-out told the Federation that they were going to be annihilated.
So?

For all the Federation knows, those 11 cubes were intended by the Borg to be capable of eradicating all life throughout the Federation.

After all, the Borg have never sent a multicube attack against the Federation (unless you count Vendetta and then it was only because of the threat presented by Planet Killer Mark II).

So an 11 cube attack might easily be seen as the sum total of the Borg assault.

That is one thing I have against all the recent Borg novels.

The characters all seem to have knowledge that they have no basis for having.

I'm curious as to why all the Borg novels have to be in the same continuity anyway.
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Old October 6 2008, 04:37 PM   #154
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Osquevel wrote: View Post
And after reading it for a second time, I am becoming really fond (if that's the right word...) of the Riker/Vale hug scene. A lot going on there, especially a lot that was implied about Vale's own sense of loss and I'm curious also to see where the "not entirely platonic" though/expression leads...
Nowhere, I hope.

I just never pegged Riker as a cheater. Especially now that he's married to Deanna.
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Old October 6 2008, 05:05 PM   #155
tenmei
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Did anyone get the impression that Chakotay wasn't the Captain of the Voyager anymore from the short segment we got in this?
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Old October 6 2008, 05:14 PM   #156
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Dayton3 wrote: View Post
The characters all seem to have knowledge that they have no basis for having.
Actually, they don't. In fact, after the battle at Korvat, on page 206…
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Old October 6 2008, 05:21 PM   #157
Dayton3
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Another question is this:

Picard is convinced that a massive Borg invasion is coming.

So why is Picard repeatedly so eager to throw away the Federations only consistent "Borg slaying" weapon, Transphasic torpedos?

Seems like Picard should be the one arguing for Starfleet to avoid using them in order to wait and use them all at once against the Borg fleet when it comes.

Instead Picard wants to use them on every single Borg ship that comes along.
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Old October 6 2008, 05:24 PM   #158
Osquevel
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Babaganoosh wrote: View Post
Nowhere, I hope.

I just never pegged Riker as a cheater. Especially now that he's married to Deanna.
Not going nowhere (pardon the double negative) doesn't necessarily lead to an affair. That circumstance would require some similar non-platonic feeling on Riker's part, which I didn't get the impression he had based on the tone of the scene. I also think it has a lot more to do with Vale's own emotional distress than anything. It's also possible that Riker saw something that wasn't there (or was something else) because of his own maligned state of affairs with Deanna.

Another facet to this is that, iirc, with the exception of Jaza, Riker is the closest friend Vale has had on Titan. Troi, who might also fall into that category, is not really in a state to help anyone. So, this fact might also play into her reaction.
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Old October 6 2008, 05:51 PM   #159
JD
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Dayton3 wrote: View Post
Another question is this:

Picard is convinced that a massive Borg invasion is coming.

So why is Picard repeatedly so eager to throw away the Federations only consistent "Borg slaying" weapon, Transphasic torpedos?

Seems like Picard should be the one arguing for Starfleet to avoid using them in order to wait and use them all at once against the Borg fleet when it comes.

Instead Picard wants to use them on every single Borg ship that comes along.
I haven't read the book yet, but it seems to me like using the torpedos on each Borg ship you run into would be alot smarter than sitting around and letting the whole invasion fleet build up. If they did that, then everybody would probably be long dead before they ever got the chance to start using them. Also there is no way to know for sure if/when the Borg will stop coming, so for all they no the Borg could keep coming for months or years, and it seems kinda crazy to sit on a successful(?) weapon that long.
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Old October 6 2008, 05:55 PM   #160
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

The Enterprise is still only one ship. It can only target one/two Borg cubes at once. It would get smashed up pretty good if it went up against multiple cubes at once, I would assume. Then again, maybe you'll get an answer in book 2, given the ending of the Aventine section of book 1...
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Old October 6 2008, 06:02 PM   #161
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

JD wrote: View Post
Dayton3 wrote: View Post
Another question is this:

Picard is convinced that a massive Borg invasion is coming.

So why is Picard repeatedly so eager to throw away the Federations only consistent "Borg slaying" weapon, Transphasic torpedos?

Seems like Picard should be the one arguing for Starfleet to avoid using them in order to wait and use them all at once against the Borg fleet when it comes.

Instead Picard wants to use them on every single Borg ship that comes along.
I haven't read the book yet, but it seems to me like using the torpedos on each Borg ship you run into would be alot smarter than sitting around and letting the whole invasion fleet build up. If they did that, then everybody would probably be long dead before they ever got the chance to start using them. Also there is no way to know for sure if/when the Borg will stop coming, so for all they no the Borg could keep coming for months or years, and it seems kinda crazy to sit on a successful(?) weapon that long.
I haven't read Destiny yet either, but hasn't it been stated in GTTS that the torpedo most likely will only work once (or at least only temporary) because the Borg will adapt to it rather quick? So it would be unwise to use it to early, and I have to agree that the most successful sounding strategy would be to build as much torpedoes as possible and use them simultaneously in a real big clash against lot of cubes to not give them the chance to adapt to them.

Last edited by Defcon; October 6 2008 at 06:02 PM. Reason: typos
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Old October 6 2008, 06:06 PM   #162
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Dayton3 wrote: View Post
So why is Picard repeatedly so eager to throw away the Federations only consistent "Borg slaying" weapon, Transphasic torpedos?

Seems like Picard should be the one arguing for Starfleet to avoid using them in order to wait and use them all at once against the Borg fleet when it comes.
Because they work. And because the Borg have, at least to the end of Gods of Night, shown no ability to adapt to them. (I suspect, however, based on the fact that the Ranger's maneuver didn't work when the Excalibur attempted a repeat, that the Borg are beginning to adapt to transphasic weapons.)

Picard's not stupid. He's probably as aware as anyone that overusing a weapon on the Borg is like using antibiotics on bacteria; eventually, they adapt to everything, and even the most powerful weapons will no longer work.

However, in the short term, Picard recognizes from his long experience that throwing ships, armed with conventional weapons of phasers and photon or quantum torpedoes, up against the Borg is a suicidal tactic. Starfleet will lose ships and crews, and still the Borg progress further into Federation space. Picard's desire for more ships to be armed with transphasics is borne out of his wish to end the slaughter of Starfleet's ships and crews, which are not easily replaced.

The sad truth is, and Picard recognizes this about two-thirds of the way into Gods of Night, the Borg have more resources at their disposal than the Federation. Even armed with transphasics, Starfleet will eventually fall to the force of nature that is the Borg, because there will come a point where the Borg simply overwhelm Starfleet's ships numerically.

Transphasics are, at best, just a finger in the dike. The dam itself is cracked, and soon the water will break through.
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Old October 6 2008, 06:39 PM   #163
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Defcon wrote: View Post
I haven't read Destiny yet either, but hasn't it been stated in GTTS that the torpedo most likely will only work once (or at least only temporary) because the Borg will adapt to it rather quick?
No, not just once. In fact, the reason transphasics are so effective is because they're just about the only weapon the Borg can't adapt to after only one or two uses. By their very nature, with the phase variations shifting randomly in each attack, they're difficult for the Borg to predict well enough to adapt to. So they probably have a longer "shelf life" than any other anti-Borg weapon. But as Allyn says, they're like antibiotics: eventually, the enemy will adapt, and the more heavily you use them, the sooner that happens.
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Old October 6 2008, 07:07 PM   #164
Dayton3
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Then why take the risk of the Enterprise using the transphasic torpedoes at all?

If Starfleet really is expecting a massive attack, why not wait and churn them out to use on the Borg fleet all at once.
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Old October 6 2008, 07:29 PM   #165
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Re: Star Trek: Destiny: Gods of Night - SPOILER Thread

Dayton3 wrote: View Post
Then why take the risk of the Enterprise using the transphasic torpedoes at all?

If Starfleet really is expecting a massive attack, why not wait and churn them out to use on the Borg fleet all at once.
And risk losing half the Federation in the process? Since they know that it will take a longer period of time than the "one or two shots at most" of most traditional weaponry, it makes sense to deploy it in some small way to try and save what they can. The question then becomes whether to deploy it everywhere and try to stop everything that comes in, saving more worlds in the short term, but potentially losing the advantage in the long term when the next wave/full-on invasion comes.

So is what you're saying that the Federation should cut its losses and fall back to the core worlds (Earth, Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, and maybe one or two others) and hold out until the Borg arrive en masse, and do as much damage as they can before these worlds too are wiped out?

It seems to me that you'd want to put out what small fires you can, even using stopgap measures, in order to stall for enough time to devise some way of stopping the inferno.

All that said, if I were in Starfleet Command, I'd have given the torpedoes to at least a handful of other ships -- the Enterprise can't be everywhere at once.
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