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Old October 3 2008, 03:36 PM   #1
Turbo
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Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

I've just about had it with both Marvel and DC right now. Both companies have a couple good titles, but have gotten so wrapped up in trying to top both each other and themselves with each new crisis and crossover that most of the main titles from each has turned into a steaming pile of crap.

On the Marvel side, Civil War was actually fairly well-handled, even if the concept was dumb. But Secret Invasion has been a total mess from the start. I still can't make heads or tails of it, and feel like I'm missing half of what's going on. New Avengers' constant flashbacks and side-stories are beyond frustrating. And One More Day/Brand New Day is the worst Spider-Man story of the past few years. I simply don't understand why they felt the need to retcon the marriage. How about allowing Spidey to have some actual character development? X-Men: Messiah Complex was rather convoluted as well, though the aftermath (primarily the new direction of Astonishing X-Men) is pretty good.

Despite its flaws, Marvel has produced a few good comics - Captain America, Astonishing X-Men, New Exiles, and Amazing Spider-Girl.

DC, on the other hand, has been thoroughly awful for several years now. Boring characterization, insipid plots, and increasingly "epic" crossovers are rampant. Infinite Crisis demolished pretty much everything that was good with Crisis on Infinite Earths. Superboy-Prime comes across as rather silly, and Alexander Luthor's reasons for restoring the multiverse were never clear (to me, at least). But that doesn't compare to Final Crisis. I still don't understand what the hell is going on. It's poorly conceived, poorly written, and has even more pointless tie-ins than Secret Invasion.

The whole DC universe has become far too convoluted. It needs to be reset, as the creators attempted to do with CoIE. But instead of phasing in the resets, they need to happen in the same month in every book. They also need to decide if they want a Multiverse or not. And finally, stop with the forever epic crossovers. I want to read some stories with good, consistent characters, not 3-issue arcs in between the endless epic tie-ins.

Sorry if this is rambling nonsense to everyone else, but it's pretty much how I feel about it right now.
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Old October 3 2008, 03:43 PM   #2
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

I'm not even reading anything by DC or Marvel since DC shunned "The Boys" and Garth Ennis stopped doing "The Punisher"
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Old October 3 2008, 04:33 PM   #3
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

I couldn't tell ya. Although I like some of the films, I have never gotten into the comics themselves. I think the main reason for this is because you have to buy two comics to get one story as each comic only has an end and a different beginning.

Even as a kid, I thought this was evil marketing. "You bought a comic? Screw you, go buy another and then you'll have a whole story!"
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Old October 3 2008, 04:40 PM   #4
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

I stopped reading Marvel after they turned Iron Man into a villain.
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Old October 3 2008, 04:43 PM   #5
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

Call me out of touch, but I just read the old stuff...back when they treated these characters with greater respect.
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Old October 3 2008, 04:54 PM   #6
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

Norrin Radd wrote: View Post
Call me out of touch, but I just read the old stuff...back when they treated these characters with greater respect.
I am with you - there's thousands of back issues and old stories out there that I haven't read from the late 1980s and earlier, and they are actually cheaper in most cases (even at the comics store in the stacks) than new books are.
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Old October 3 2008, 04:55 PM   #7
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

I stopped my 40-year hobby of buying comics this summer. I just couldn't justify the expense for the entertainment value.
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Old October 3 2008, 05:00 PM   #8
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

With a couple of one off exceptions I stopped reading the regular Marvel U eons ago. And after reading all the titles in rebooted Ultimate Universe and its (for now) drastically pared down continuity, it's doubtful I'll pick up with the 616 again.

DC's a bit of a mess, granted. While some of their big events I enjoyed (52) and others far less so (Countdown and Final Crisis) I seem to have more patience for their mistakes. Some titles, such as Trinity, Checkmate and the current Justice Society run, I think are quite good. Justice League, on the other hand, while not bad is not hitting its marks.
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Old October 3 2008, 05:01 PM   #9
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

A lot of the recent storylines have interested me when I'd read about them in Wizard or on articles on websites, for example Civil War, World War: Hulk and Secret Invasion all seemed like great ideas to me. However, in practice, they've all stunk and been chores to read.
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Old October 3 2008, 05:13 PM   #10
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

The Evil Dead wrote: View Post
A lot of the recent storylines have interested me when I'd read about them in Wizard or on articles on websites, for example Civil War, World War: Hulk and Secret Invasion all seemed like great ideas to me. However, in practice, they've all stunk and been chores to read.
The problem with all of these is that they build themselves up as these universe-altering events and in the end there's little to no payoff. In truth, I don't think Marvel's cross-over events have ever been done too well, but these days they seem to be hyped up to such a large degree that the disappointment is more noticeable.
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Old October 3 2008, 05:27 PM   #11
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

I just can't get into these huge events with all kinds of tie-ins and side-stories anymore. I end up reading mini-series and try to find good, self-contained stories on the outskirts or even outside the 'main' continuity.
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Old October 3 2008, 05:48 PM   #12
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

Yeah, I'm really sick of the crossovers and "epic" crap. I thought to myself "Identity Crisis...well, let them get through that, then maybe we'll get some good standalone stories."

Nope. Because then we had Infinite Crisis. And Final Crisis. And 52. And it just keeps going and going and going...

These publishers have some great characters - both heroes, and villains. If they want to do crossovers, fine. But some of the flagship titles (at least one for each major character) should devote themselves to standalone stories - or multi-part stories that don't have more than 2 or 3 parts. (You want to do 6-part, 180 page stories? Fine. Release it as a graphic novel. Don't ruin a comic book line and obligate a reader to pick up 6 issues for a story that can be told in 3, and don't make it hard for new subscribers to jump in, because they start with part 4 of a 6 part storyline and don't get anything INTERESTING to them until the 4th issue of their subscription.).

Seriously, they aren't taking advantage of the story potential of these characters. How many people thought "I want to read some Batman comics" after seeing The Dark Knight? I know I considered buying a subscription then, one which I hadn't had for the last 10 years. Then I checked out what the next couple issues were going to be about - and it's all interconnected, massive crossover storylines that I don't care about.

How many other potentially new readers were turned off for the same reason?

I just want a good old-fashioned Detective story. Batman vs. Two-Face. or Batman takes on a new villain. Or Batman vs. Joker. Or Batman vs. Mad Hatter. Or SOMETHING.

But the main titles don't have that any more - it's either "Batman teams up with 6 other superheroes to save the universe from cosmic collapse" or "Batman fights every villain he knows in one weak mystery that takes 8 issues to tell."

When I was a kid, in the early 90s, the editor of "Batman" made us a promise - a minimum of a year of stories without crossovers, and no storylines longer than 3 issues. To this day, those stories are still the BEST monthly-title stories written - just Batman versus one or two villains at a time, with good mysteries and good writing.

If you want a good story, you have to go back to the classics - but there are only so many of those. And at some point, you want to stop re-reading the same stories, and read new stories instead.

But they just don't tell them anymore (or often enough - you get the odd graphic novel here and there, but this should be a monthly occurence!)

(I focused mostly on Batman in my post, but the same is true of all the other heroes - it's just Batman in particular that, for me, frustrates me).
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Old October 3 2008, 05:49 PM   #13
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

Norrin Radd wrote: View Post
The Evil Dead wrote: View Post
A lot of the recent storylines have interested me when I'd read about them in Wizard or on articles on websites, for example Civil War, World War: Hulk and Secret Invasion all seemed like great ideas to me. However, in practice, they've all stunk and been chores to read.
The problem with all of these is that they build themselves up as these universe-altering events and in the end there's little to no payoff. In truth, I don't think Marvel's cross-over events have ever been done too well, but these days they seem to be hyped up to such a large degree that the disappointment is more noticeable.
Another thing is the primal lack of communication between writers. A while back, Red Skull appeared in one comic despite having been killed the same month in Cap. Yeah, he never stays dead. But the same month, with no *occurs before Cap#* inserted?

Another one was, of course, the IM editors not caring how Tony Stark was depicted in the pages of CW. I generally liked JMS Spidey stuff. But in the CW issues, Tony was this ravening fascist, and basically told Peter unmask or be outed. Then, to top it off, dialogue from a Spidey issue (They're never being released, Peter) that follows *directly* into a Main CW issue is altered between issues. Not just phrasing, mind you. But the same line, taken from the same scene (Only until they register, Peter. Then they'll be released). The first instance makes Iron Man completely corrupt, and the second makes you wonder what the hell has Spidey up in arms. No where is it said that Spidey's worries are making him hear things.

Finally, we go to Countdown to/Final Crisis. OK. Darkseid and all his cronies are humiliatingly killed while being hunted like dogs, some pleading for their skins. But Grant Morrison knew nothing of Starlin's series, or was allowed to act as such, because after their beat-down, the evil NG's were all reborn as mostly untouchable crime bosses who seem to have already won in the brief interval between events. Yeah, them and Beast Wars Megatron, because its well known that total defeat and humiliation puts you in the catbird's seat.
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Old October 3 2008, 05:55 PM   #14
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

The Ultimate Marvel series all seem pretty good to me so far.
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Old October 3 2008, 07:34 PM   #15
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Re: Is anyone else sick of the junk coming out of both Marvel and DC?

scorpius1701 wrote: View Post
The Ultimate Marvel series all seem pretty good to me so far.
Hmm, I think Ultimate X-men took a crash dive with the Bishop/Cable/Apocalypse storyline. Otherwise I agree with those who've commented on too many 'events' and titles and not enough actual storyline. The artwork don't seem so hot recently either.
Thankfully the movie adaptions have really taken off and seem to treat both characters and concepts much better.
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