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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 18 2008, 08:21 PM   #76
RobertScorpio
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Apogeal Alpha01 wrote: View Post
The Borg. We've never seen the Borg at war except with Species 8472. It's always been a piecemeal battle with in-universe forces demanding one or two cubes at a time for victory. War means an all out battle with the end being dominance of another system, or quadrant. If the Borg had chosen to commit forces with the end being the destruction of the AQ, or GQ, rather than assimilation and acquisition of it's humanoids and technology, it would have happened.

The writers couldn't give the Federation more of a fight than it could overcome, the show must go on. I can't realistically imagine 100 or more Borg Cubes and dozens of Spheres, which they could have easily mustered out of thousands upon thousands of ships, not overcoming any armada the Dominion could field.
And yet the Federation COULD have brought them down with a simple virus. And it would appear that the Dominion are as advanced as us, or even more so, when it comes to viruses and genetics...Most of the arguement for the Borg is that they have all these ships..thousands or so..and yet they are still stuck in the Delta Quadrant after thousands of years, even with their Transwarp tech???

Dominion wins because they are quite simply more shrewed..the Borg are just big...

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Old September 18 2008, 08:50 PM   #77
Apogeal Alpha01
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Stuck? More apparently, they choose to be a Delta Quadrant power. Species 8472 was a lot more tasty morsel that ordinary folks. What would have drawn their interest to the AQ thousands of years ago? As we saw when Q introduced the Borg to the Enterprise crew, they were not aware of humans at the time. And afterwards, thought the possible technological gain from humans only justified a fairly minor expenditure of resources.

The Dominion's cloning tech may be more advanced, but they couldn't overcome the virus introduced to them by Section 31, so, there is no question that they are, or would be vulnerable in the future. Even the cloning facilities, not being mobile, are vulnerable.

Clever viruses and genetic engineering have limitations, we have no evidence that these tactics would not be anticipated and defenses adapted from past encounters by the Borg. The Borg's own manipulation of genetics by introducing cybernetic implants that allow drones to re-energize organic tissue with direct energy, light speed adaption to strategy, and regenerating ships speaks to pretty awesome technology. That and their sheer brutality, would make them too formidable in a real war.

I think the Dominion would have to get real lucky.
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Old September 18 2008, 09:01 PM   #78
RobertScorpio
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Apogeal Alpha01 wrote: View Post
Stuck? More apparently, they choose to be a Delta Quadrant power. Species 8472 was a lot more tasty morsel that ordinary folks. What would have drawn their interest to the AQ thousands of years ago? As we saw when Q introduced the Borg to the Enterprise crew, they were not aware of humans at the time. And afterwards, thought the possible technological gain from humans only justified a fairly minor expenditure of resources.

The Dominion's cloning tech may be more advanced, but they couldn't overcome the virus introduced to them by Section 31, so, there is no question that they are, or would be vulnerable in the future. Even the cloning facilities, not being mobile, are vulnerable.

Clever viruses and genetic engineering have limitations, we have no evidence that these tactics would not be anticipated and defenses adapted from past encounters by the Borg. The Borg's own manipulation of genetics by introducing cybernetic implants that allow drones to re-energize organic tissue with direct energy, light speed adaption to strategy, and regenerating ships speaks to pretty awesome technology. That and their sheer brutality, would make them too formidable in a real war.

I think the Dominion would have to get real lucky.

Stuck..and stupid..

The fact they could be duped by Lore..almost infected by a mathmatical formula that could have wiped them all out is all the proof I need to see that the Borg are nothing more than TREK's most over-rated threat. And VOYAGER, if anything, turned them into paper tigers...

Rob
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Old September 18 2008, 09:46 PM   #79
Apogeal Alpha01
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

There was a difference between the pre-queen Borg and the Voyager Borg. During a real war, didn't the Borg shed the queen and revert to it's previous non-emotional collective? The queen-led Borg focused on something as petty as bringing 7 of 9 back to the collective, taking personally the defeat of a pest like Janeway and Voyager, which the pre-queen Borg, or the Borg at war, would never have indulged.
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Old September 18 2008, 10:44 PM   #80
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

I find myself wondering why people assume that the virus/puzzle brought up in "I, Borg" would have actually done...well, anything...to the Borg. Because Geordi said so?

Not the best argument, to my mind.
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Old September 19 2008, 12:13 AM   #81
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

I remember something that Worf said in "Best of Both Worlds".

"The Borg have neither honor nor courage. That...is our greatest advantage."

Many a DS9 episode has established that Jem'Hadar have both honor and courage. I feel confident that they would put that advantage to good use.

Just my $0.02.
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Old September 19 2008, 01:06 AM   #82
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Just to say that when you're at war, if you've got nothing else in terms of obvious advantage, you better stoke your own psyche. The Klingons have that warrior spirit.
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Old September 19 2008, 04:59 AM   #83
Seventh White Boomer
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

DonIago wrote: View Post
I find myself wondering why people assume that the virus/puzzle brought up in "I, Borg" would have actually done...well, anything...to the Borg. Because Geordi said so?

Not the best argument, to my mind.
We also don't know that it would not have worked either. Given that they were planning to deploy it as a weapon they must have had some confidence that it would have worked.

We do know that in one potential timeline the Federation did create some sort of virus that is very effective against the Borg within 20 years of Nemesis.
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Old September 19 2008, 05:22 AM   #84
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Red Squad had confidence that their attack on the Dominion warship would destroy it. We saw how well that worked out...

I grant that the virus _may_ have worked. Or it may have done absolutely nothing. But to claim it _would_ have worked is more than a little facetious.
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Old September 19 2008, 07:57 AM   #85
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

^ I don't disagree with you. You can't know if a weapon will work until you use it for its intended purpose.
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Old September 19 2008, 05:39 PM   #86
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Yay, we have non-disagreement.
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Old September 19 2008, 08:20 PM   #87
Marie1
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

DonIago wrote: View Post
Yay, we have non-disagreement.
Realistically I agree that the novels aren't canon, so their addition in novels like this probably won't make or break anything. But the novels are written and edited by people who are *really* into Trek, at least in this case, using ST references works and the series extensively. And the careful and detailed account made me want to throw it in there... Plus the Jem'Hadar are my absolute fav. ST species... and maybe the Horta. I really think the Dominion would win, esp since, as mentioned, they have rarely seen warships, and the new one as seen in "The Valient" and their production of such things is ususally 100% capacity, at least when necessary. It takes a couple weeks to get new Jemmies, it takes 20 years to get new humans. :P
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Old September 19 2008, 08:59 PM   #88
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

The main argument in the thread is the fact that the Borg can assimilate and increase their numbers exponentially would lead to their victory. I personally think the Jem'Hadar are just too ruthless for the absent-minded drones. Not to mention, if they don't come in firing hand disruptors they just shroud or stab you with their sword. Plus I remember a Jem'Hadar breaking a Cardassian's spine with his knee in the fight in "behind the lines" hahahahahahaha.
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Old September 20 2008, 04:01 AM   #89
Seventh White Boomer
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

^ Another big advantage the Borg have is transwarp. It means the Borg can reach them but the Dominion can't strike back at the Borg. The Dominion can't impede the Borg's ndustrial capacity if it can't strike at shipyards, command centres, dilithium production centres. The Borg on the other hand can hit Dominion shipyards and more importantly they can hit KW production facilities. You mess with that and the Dominion is in real trouble.

That reminds me, in DS9 we see Sisko and co go after the main KW production place and destroy but we never see any consequences of this, which I found a bit disappointing.
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Old September 20 2008, 04:07 AM   #90
Ro_Laren
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Acetylhexene wrote: View Post
If the Borg assimilated a Founder, would the drone be like a T-X from Terminator 3?

Borg hardware endoskeleton covered by polymimetic nanoprobe-cybernetic biomatter?

*sigh* I can dream...
Scary!

I've never thought about a Borg v. Dominion scenario. But doesn't it just seem like the Borg have enough ships that they can just simultaneously swoop in and destroy every Dominion cloning facility at one time? Of course that is assuming they knew where they were all located. But, all it takes it assimilating the right Vorta for that info.
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