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Old September 17 2008, 05:49 PM   #16
Dukhat
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

Hey, let's have a Flare Forum party at the TrekBBS!

Seriously, though...

Timo: You're forgetting that the Aries already had a first officer of the Commander rank: Cmdr. Flaherty. So unless they were going to be co-captains, I'd guess that Riker would get that fourth pip.

Reverend: Believe me, nothing would make me happier than to see new, original designs for the conjectural classes (kinda like what you did for the Antares). However, I based my conjectural designs on several factors, of which the registries were only one.

1. The curious lack of more than one or two Antares, Hokule'a and Wambundu class ships in operation, going along with the curious lack of Ambassador class ships, as opposed to other vessel classes, at about the same time.

2. Between the mid 23rd century and the mid 24th, most major vessel classes had variants of the "classic" design for their era. For example:

a. TOS Connie = Hermes/Saladin, Ptolemy, Federation (and yes, I consider the FJ designs canon).

b. TMP Connie = Miranda, Constellation, Connie DS9 kitbash

c. Excelsior = Centaur DS9 kitbash, Curry/Raging Queen DS9 kitbash, 3-nacelled DS9 kitbash.

d. Ambassador = ?

e. Galaxy = too numerous to mention.

The Ambassador is the only major class with no known variants, but with four conjectural classes built around the same time. Hence, using Occam's Razor, I guessed that they were the Ambassador's variants.


Also, I'm still of the opinion that the Centaur design would not be right for the Renaissance class if only because it would make more sense as a new design rather than an Excelsior kitbash. I do agree with what you said on Flare that Andrew Probert's original Ent-C design (or more specifically, your take on it) would fit better as the Renaissance class. But I'm glad we agree on the Apollo!

Last edited by Boo-khat; September 17 2008 at 06:01 PM.
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Old September 17 2008, 06:43 PM   #17
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

Dukhat wrote: View Post
Hey, let's have a Flare Forum party at the TrekBBS!
You rang?
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Old September 17 2008, 06:50 PM   #18
Timo
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

I'd argue that the Ambassador is merely the largest member of the Excelsior family of ships, with the same sort of saucer profile, the same open-top nacelles (which only make a comeback in the Sovereign family, this time without the side "field windows"), and the same rounded deflector.

And Commander Flaherty could have been of LtCmdr rank.

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Old September 18 2008, 09:45 PM   #19
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

And I would counter-argue that besides the saucer profile, the open-top nacelles and the round deflector, the ship is completely different than the Excelsior. But your hypothesis would certainly explain why there are no Ambassador variants. However, it wouldn't explain why the shipbuilders started with the Excelsior, upgraded to the Ambassador, but went back to the Excelsior in a major way later.

I put it to you, Mr. Okuda: Just why was the decision made to have Ambassador class ships with registries of 2XXXX, and Excelsior class ships with registries of 4XXXX? In early TNG, all the Excelsiors had low four-digit registries, but by DS9 they had these huge five-digit registries in the 40,000s!
Why? Why this madness???
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Old September 19 2008, 01:14 AM   #20
Herkimer Jitty
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

In TNG, it seems to pretty much be the backbone of the fleet. I would imagine the registry issue is because Starfleet kept building Excelsiors. Why replace a perfectly reliable design? Indeed, as with all ship classes, no two have the exact same internals, so as you keep building them, they stay up to date with technology and building methods, and the Excelsior seems vaunted and reliable, so no need for a replacement for quite a while.
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Old September 19 2008, 03:19 AM   #21
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

Ok perhaps the disappearance of the Ambassador Class can be linked to Yesterday's Enterprise.

A handful were built for testing and deployment and suddenly one, the most FAMOUS one vanishes. Rumors circulate, and intel reveals that the Romulans managed to capture it intact, with living crew-members. It is decided that no further units will be built with that design using that technology-base because the Romulans know every detail and weakness. It is felt this would prove a liability in a conflict.... which never occures because the Romulans withdraw from contact for many years.
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Old September 19 2008, 11:19 AM   #22
Timo
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

That's a pretty cool idea - hey, perhaps they retired Archer's ship early for the same reason, realizing that every belligerent in the neighborhood had hijacked said vessel sufficiently often or for a sufficient length of time to compromise her military secrets.

I'd argue that Ambassador is the largest of the Excelsior family, but not the best solution overall - just like Galaxy is the largest of her family, but only built in relatively small numbers compared with related smaller designs. Production of the giants would finish when the limited need for them was met, while production of the mediumweights would continue until the far greater need for them would in turn be met. Hence the Excelsior generation would extend from NCC-2000 to NCC-45000 or so, save for late experiments, while the Galaxy generation would begin with something like NCC-57000 and run to NCC-72000 - but random factors would dictate that the behemoths of each generation would be built at different relative stages of the generation.

Whether there's a generation between those two, it's difficult to tell. There's some family resemblance between the mid-registry Steamrunner and the later Sabre, but all the other designs on that general vein are in the realm of fanfic...

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Old September 19 2008, 05:43 PM   #23
Dukhat
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

Plecostomus wrote: View Post
Ok perhaps the disappearance of the Ambassador Class can be linked to Yesterday's Enterprise.

A handful were built for testing and deployment and suddenly one, the most FAMOUS one vanishes. Rumors circulate, and intel reveals that the Romulans managed to capture it intact, with living crew-members. It is decided that no further units will be built with that design using that technology-base because the Romulans know every detail and weakness. It is felt this would prove a liability in a conflict.... which never occures because the Romulans withdraw from contact for many years.
A nice theory, but there are two problems with it (or at least one problem that's canon):

a. The disappearance of the Ent-C was a complete mystery until Picard met Sela. So even though we the audience knew what happened, Starfleet didn't, so there wouldn't have been any intel about the Romulan involvement. The last official Starfleet/Romulan contact was the Tomed Incident of 2311, so no one knew about what happened at Narendra III.

b. According to my timeline (which of course is conjectural based on registry numbers), the Ent-C was destroyed 30 years after the Ambassador class was commissioned. So Starfleet had thirty years in which to build a ton of Ambassadors before the Ent-C met her fate, so the Romulans wouldn't have been the reason why this didn't happen.


Also, if Starfleet did have intel that the Ent-C was captured intact with a living crew, at the least there would have been a rescue mission to retrieve the survivors and the ship, and at the most, the Federation would have declared war against the Romulans. Neither of those things happened.
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Old September 19 2008, 05:56 PM   #24
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

Actually, the disappearance of the E-C was only a mystery to the folks of the "war timeline". In the timeline that was created at the conclusion of "Yesterday's Enterprise", the Feds readily attributed the disappearance of the E-C to Romulan aggression at the defense of the Klingon world Narendra III, as Picard states in "Redemption".

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Old September 19 2008, 06:13 PM   #25
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

Yes, you're right about that. Picard makes it sound like it was just a story or a bunch of rumors, but I'm curious as to why Starfleet didn't at least check into it. Did they not want to contact the Romulans that badly that they just ignored rumors that missing Starfleet officers could possibly be alive?

(Honestly, I think this is just an oversight by the writers of "Redemption." The fate of the Ent-C should have still remained a mystery. That would have made Sela's existence that much more mind-boggling to Picard, and why Starfleet didn't look into the Narendra III incident further).
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Old September 19 2008, 06:42 PM   #26
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

Did Sela note that the actual ship survived?

For if she did not, it seems more likely that some of the crew went for the escape pods and were picked up by the Romulans.
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Old September 19 2008, 07:21 PM   #27
Timo
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

It would seem that Starfleet knew the E-C had been present to defend Narendra III, but that there were no Fed or Klingon spatial survivors to tell the story of how that defense actually went. So Starfleet in the regular timeline would have no leads to go by, no reason to assume anybody from the ship survived. The result of the investigation to the loss of the ship would be "Blasted to bits by Romulans without survivors or cooperative eyewitnesses", end of story.

In the war timeline, we might assume that there were some Klingon witnesses to the "cowardly retreat" of the E-C, and that they told Starfleet nothing but went on a war footing and eventually attacked. Or at least the planetside Klingons knew the E-C had come to protect them, and then the Romulans came and won, and the Klingons afterward were able to ascertain that there was no wreckage of the Starfleet vessel anywhere -> cowardice!

Rumors of Federation survivors? Since when did rumors travel out of the isolationist RSE?

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Old September 20 2008, 05:42 PM   #28
Dukhat
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

Rumors of Federation survivors? Since when did rumors travel out of the isolationist RSE?
Well it must have gotten out somehow; how else would Picard have heard about it?
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Old September 20 2008, 06:35 PM   #29
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

Timo wrote: View Post
It would seem that Starfleet knew the E-C had been present to defend Narendra III, but that there were no Fed or Klingon spatial survivors to tell the story of how that defense actually went. So Starfleet in the regular timeline would have no leads to go by, no reason to assume anybody from the ship survived. The result of the investigation to the loss of the ship would be "Blasted to bits by Romulans without survivors or cooperative eyewitnesses", end of story.

In the war timeline, we might assume that there were some Klingon witnesses to the "cowardly retreat" of the E-C, and that they told Starfleet nothing but went on a war footing and eventually attacked. Or at least the planetside Klingons knew the E-C had come to protect them, and then the Romulans came and won, and the Klingons afterward were able to ascertain that there was no wreckage of the Starfleet vessel anywhere -> cowardice!

Rumors of Federation survivors? Since when did rumors travel out of the isolationist RSE?

Timo Saloniemi

Wouldn't be that hard to get rumors out of the Romulan Empire. Free-traders that run between both the Federation and the Romulan Empire would carry the rumors out with them.
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Old September 24 2008, 02:10 AM   #30
Tigger
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Re: Renaissance class U.S.S. Aries

I admit it's been awhile since I have seen the episode, but was it established as fact that the Klingons saw the E-C depart the field of battle?

Or was it just that her absence (and the assistance her presence would have provided) never led to the gradual thawing of relations (perhaps started with Khitomer in ST 6) which resulted in the Klingons entering into an alliance with the Federation, but instead continued mistrust and misunderstandings eventually led to war.
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