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Old September 16 2008, 05:58 AM   #31
Dark Gilligan
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

ncc74302 wrote: View Post
They're not making the show for the damn executives, they're making it for the FANS!
Come on, you know that's not remotely true. Television is a business. Shows aren't made for fans, they're made for advertising revenue.
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Old September 16 2008, 06:01 AM   #32
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

joss' shows always have this much trouble starting (except for angel, because of buffy). all of his shows have had problems being sold to network execs and audience. i only know of buffy being able to launch and stay on air despite having trouble starting. i say he should have gone to cw where they are more desperate to get tentpole shows especially with smallville going bye bye after this season.

but yes, even though people are saying the show is not in trouble, it's not exactly on solid ground. people finding his original concept and vision "confusing" and having to redo a pilot, even if it was his idea, means that the network has already put it on yellow alert probably. fox has a long history of dumping shows that don't work right out of the gate. he should have shopped this around as a syndication, but i think eliza has a contract with fox so if the show would involve her it has to involve fox. joss is a bit trapped.

as for the concept, i think the "voluntary" part did not include full disclosure. that's probably like volunteering for military duty and not knowing that you're on a suicide mission. yes, no one would volunteer for that. some may, to escape whatever is troubling them in their lives. i bet some chars will have shady pasts that they wanted to forget and what better way to do it and earn cash (if they are earning)? isn't the concept of the show that she's slowly gaining her memories back and retaining info so she'll probably be on a mission to take the organization down.
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Old September 16 2008, 06:17 AM   #33
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

You do recall America used to have random platoons just march into dissipating mushroom cloud fallout to see y'know, what exactly would happen?

Every government is a dick.

The Roman Emperors when they died hoped the senate would elect to deify them as a reward fro excellent service, the best Mr Bush could hope for one would think is that he be given his own holiday. Despite the fact that he is the worst American president in living memory, I wouldn't mind celebrating "Bush Day" in some according manner, although some would claim that the combination of Washington and Lincoln's subsequent Birthdays into a single Presidents day should be enough for every president past present and future no matter how power mad and needy he or she may get.

I assumed that this show would be on par with La Femme Nikita. "Good Job, but I'll most likely kill you in the morning." sort of a last chance to prisoners commuting albeit temporarily a death sentence.

Volunteers?

Now that's just Yucky.

then again in an old origin comic for Captain America there were some faliures before Steve's super soldier formula took. I beleive the statement "Every muscle in his body will explode" was used... And these dolls are lucky in my mind that they weren't sent off to a cosmetics company for product testign now that we're almost too moral to test on animals.

Oh, give Cliff Richards a job for the credits already.

Or better yet, Clifff Richards and the Young Ones!
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Old September 16 2008, 06:40 AM   #34
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
From the first time I read this premise, my initial thought was similar: where's the Why-Should-I-Care factor in all this? The lead character must want something, and I must care about her enough that I want to see her get what she wants.
Wow, B5 again. For me, the interesting question is not "What Do You Want?", but "Who Are You?" And I'm less interested in following the character going after their goals, than the character engaging in a journey of discovery, for which them achieving goals is just a part.

Whedon's stories are unique in exploring "Who Are You?", every one, and most of his characters, not just the "star(s)".

Dollhouse may be the most literal iteration of this concept yet in Whedon's work.
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Last edited by stonester1; September 16 2008 at 02:01 PM.
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Old September 16 2008, 07:09 AM   #35
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Dark Gilligan wrote: View Post
ncc74302 wrote: View Post
They're not making the show for the damn executives, they're making it for the FANS!
Come on, you know that's not remotely true. Television is a business. Shows aren't made for fans, they're made for advertising revenue.
And a man who a world wide loyal fansbase who wear shirts saying "Whedon Is My Master Now" can't generate revenue? His show is very likely not broken, and they are trying to "fix" it.
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Old September 16 2008, 01:48 PM   #36
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Tharpdevenport wrote: View Post
Dark Gilligan wrote: View Post
ncc74302 wrote: View Post
They're not making the show for the damn executives, they're making it for the FANS!
Come on, you know that's not remotely true. Television is a business. Shows aren't made for fans, they're made for advertising revenue.
And a man who a world wide loyal fansbase who wear shirts saying "Whedon Is My Master Now" can't generate revenue?
But can he generate enough? The brown tongues or whatever they were called weren't enough to turn serenity into a hit movie.
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Old September 16 2008, 02:21 PM   #37
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Tharpdevenport wrote: View Post
Dark Gilligan wrote: View Post
ncc74302 wrote: View Post
They're not making the show for the damn executives, they're making it for the FANS!
Come on, you know that's not remotely true. Television is a business. Shows aren't made for fans, they're made for advertising revenue.
And a man who a world wide loyal fansbase who wear shirts saying "Whedon Is My Master Now" can't generate revenue? His show is very likely not broken, and they are trying to "fix" it.
The fanbase might be around the whole, that doesn't mean there's a lot of them...that means they are just around the world.

And besides they don't want JUST the fanbase...they want something that appeals broadly...and that's true of every show...
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Old September 16 2008, 04:02 PM   #38
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

I saw the TV preview for the show a few months back, it was like an extended trailer, i think it was from one of those TV-ad-selling meetings or whatnot.... and to be honest with you, if I hadn't read on the INTERNET MONTHS BEFORE "Joss whedon is gonna do this new show, and here's what it's about..." ...I would not have been interested in that show, and I wouldn't have even grasped the premise correctly.
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Old September 16 2008, 07:14 PM   #39
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Dream wrote: View Post
I have to ask. What's the point of this show? Girl discovers that she is human. Is that it? Because that sounds kind of boring compared to Whedon's previous shows.
I laughed at the title/concept of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," too. It's now my all-time favorite show. I thought Firefly sounded kind of ho-hum, and ended up finding it brilliant. Whedon is a master of taking a concept that sounds either ok or even not all that great and turning it into something phenomenal. I've got faith in the guy (and no, that's not blind faith--if he does something that's not all that great, I'll point it out).

It's never a good sign when production shuts down. That being said, it's a mid-season show and they've got some time to work out the kinks.
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Old September 16 2008, 07:19 PM   #40
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Is murdoch the most evil man in the century? Kinda liek hitler of multimedia?
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Old September 16 2008, 07:47 PM   #41
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Tharpdevenport wrote: View Post
And a man who a world wide loyal fansbase who wear shirts saying "Whedon Is My Master Now" can't generate revenue?
Using that logic, "Serenity" shouldn't have tanked. But it did, big time. The fanbase can't generate enough revenue to pay Fox's bills. Advertising revenue can... that's what show "business" means. Besides, nobody but Joss himself is going to take a bunch of people wearing "Whedon Is My Master Now" t-shirts seriously. Would you?
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Old September 16 2008, 07:51 PM   #42
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Dark Gilligan wrote: View Post
Tharpdevenport wrote: View Post
And a man who a world wide loyal fansbase who wear shirts saying "Whedon Is My Master Now" can't generate revenue?
Using that logic, "Serenity" shouldn't have tanked. But it did, big time.
To be completely accurate, it didn't make the studio reams of money. It didn't actually lose the studio much money, probably none after DVD sales are counted. But that ain't sexy in the movie biz.

The fanbase can't generate enough revenue to pay Fox's bills. Advertising revenue can... that's what show "business" means.
Absolutely true, I think that's the lesson to take from Serenity: No core fanbase can be sufficient, you have to target the general audience.

Besides, nobody but Joss himself is going to take a bunch of people wearing "Whedon Is My Master Now" t-shirts seriously. Would you?
I don't think a minor joke poking fun at Star Wars Episode 3 is really intended to be taken seriously in the sense that you mean.
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Old September 16 2008, 08:01 PM   #43
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Wow, B5 again.
I chuckled when JMS introduced that. He got it from his Screenwriting 101 textbook: the first thing you do in building any character is ask yourself what the character wants.

For me, the interesting question is not "What Do You Want?", but "Who Are You?"
"Who Are You" isn't very interesting unless the character wants something. Simply exploring a character can be a lot of fun - Dexter is a great example of that - but in that case, you better have one hell of an actor to back up your writing and keep the audience's attention riveted even during the "boring" navel gazing parts.

And you still need some sort of internal conflict for the character to explore, to give the question some dramatic interest. Resolving the conflict is what the character wants, so "Who Are You" and "What Do You Want?" are the same question anyway.

Dark Gilligan wrote: View Post
ncc74302 wrote: View Post
They're not making the show for the damn executives, they're making it for the FANS!
Come on, you know that's not remotely true. Television is a business. Shows aren't made for fans, they're made for advertising revenue.
They're made to attract the specific eyeballs the advertisers want - just to be totally precise.
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Old September 16 2008, 09:47 PM   #44
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

From what I remember of a Dollhouse trailer, Fox was wanting to sell RoboHos: The Series. If Whedon had other ideas, there would be the dread "creative differences." The Fox people may well be right in thinking that sex would sell better. (And, sight unseen, I'd guess that Fox executives who think there are major problems with Prison Break are right. Serials usually have grave flaws, because the format demands artificially delayed resolutions, including character rewrites.) Or bad times may just be making them freak out over budgets. Usually (but not always!) when a show is so bad that TV executives, whether Fox or not, are worried about the quality of the product, the show is really bad. This is a bad sign, but not definitive. No point in freaking out til the premiere.
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Old September 16 2008, 11:16 PM   #45
Temis the Vorta
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Re: Dollhouse in Trouble?

Frankly, RoboHos also sounds boring. They have sex, so what? It's broadcast TV, so they can't show anything. If I wanted to watch porn, I'd watch porn. I really don't think heavily censored sex will sell, given the available competition.

I'd much rather have some really interesting sci-fi drama with fascinating characters who are trying to do something with their lives - even if it's only to find themselves - that we can root for. They can have sex when the story needs that, they can play video games or go to the mall or eat a burger or anything else for that matter. You can't build a story around any of that.
And, sight unseen, I'd guess that Fox executives who think there are major problems with Prison Break are right.

Prison Break
's flaw is that it had a great one-season premise, and no plan for doing anything to extend the story well. They had a second-season plan for everyone being on the run, but that was a major let-down. Since then, they've been completely flailing.

There are many premises that can last for several seasons or even indefinitely; the fact that PB doesn't have one of them doesn't mean Dollhouse can't.
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