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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old September 7 2008, 07:37 PM   #31
Plecostomus
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

Could have something to do with the mission profile. The larger ships with the big blue glowy thing could be expected to be in situations were a more flexible and powerful system is needed while the embedded/non-glowy version is for ships that operate close to home along established routes and don't often go where no one has gone before.
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Old September 8 2008, 12:35 PM   #32
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

Or it might be that the glow has nothing to do with deflecting, and is merely the external element of the advanced research-oriented sensors that these certain ships have clustered around the navigational deflector.

Most ships won't need such sensors, so they make do with just the deflector, which is a really small and unassuming piece of greebling...

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Old September 8 2008, 01:14 PM   #33
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

Timo wrote: View Post
Or it might be that the glow has nothing to do with deflecting, and is merely the external element of the advanced research-oriented sensors that these certain ships have clustered around the navigational deflector.
Then you would expect to see the big glowy dishes on the science craft, like the Oberth and Miranda, and not on the more general-purpose ships like the Constitution...
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Old September 8 2008, 02:04 PM   #34
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

Only if you think Miranda is a science craft. ST2 portrays her as a battlewagon, more heavily armed than Kirk's ship, and DS9 uses her mainly as a combat fleet outrider, while TNG appears to show former warhorses demoted to science or supply roles rather than dedicated science vessels.

Personally, I'd think the forward-pointing array at the navigational deflector location would be ideal for very long range scanning: the instruments would get a boost from the FTL fields that the deflector projects ahead of the ship. Such scanning would be useful for deep space exploration starships such as the various Enterprises, but less necessary for survey vessels such as the Oberths that first putter to the survey location and settle in orbit, then spend weeks or months doing short range scans.

It may be incidental or coincidental, but ships mostly seen in combat roles (say, Akira or Defiant) seem to have somewhat smaller glowing thingamabobs than their exploration-oriented contemporaries and stablemates. And the E-E, which seems more martial than the E-D, also goes for a more compact dish...

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Old September 9 2008, 12:35 PM   #35
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

Timo wrote: View Post
Only if you think Miranda is a science craft.
The Reliant's designers certainly saw her that way:

Joe Jennings wrote:
She was supposed to be a coastal and geodetic survey ship, like a buoy tender. She would be armed, perhaps, but only lightly; she wasn't a lion ship like the Enterprise. Also, remember the Enterprise was always supposed to be an exploratory vessel, where the armament was secondary. That was even more true for the Reliant; she was supposed to just stick around in the known universe and take care of things that everybody already knew about.
TWOK seemed to follow that at least somewhat by putting the Reliant on a planet survey mission, sort of like the Grissom in TSFS.

Either way, I think I like Sternbach's take on it just as well: that there is more than one way to push unwanted particles out of a ship's path, and the ships with the big dishes use one and the ships without use another. Sort of like real life, where, for example, not everything that flies uses wings and a propeller; as such, we might expect to see several different approaches to the deflector problem developed over time.
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Old September 9 2008, 02:10 PM   #36
Timo
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

The Reliant's designers certainly saw her that way
That's a bit odd, as the ship's mission in the movie was to plausibly outgun Kirk's ship. After a sneaky first strike anyway. It almost sounds as if Jennings didn't read the script!

Also, if the designers really attempted what they said, why did they give the Reliant so many guns? If anything, by design she was the most militantly aggressive ship design in Star Trek history until, dunno, the Stargazer (again bristling with identifiable weapons) or perhaps even the Defiant.

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Old September 10 2008, 12:45 AM   #37
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

Timo wrote: View Post
Personally, I'd think the forward-pointing array at the navigational deflector location would be ideal for very long range scanning: the instruments would get a boost from the FTL fields that the deflector projects ahead of the ship. Such scanning would be useful for deep space exploration starships such as the various Enterprises, but less necessary for survey vessels such as the Oberths that first putter to the survey location and settle in orbit, then spend weeks or months doing short range scans.

It may be incidental or coincidental, but ships mostly seen in combat roles (say, Akira or Defiant) seem to have somewhat smaller glowing thingamabobs than their exploration-oriented contemporaries and stablemates. And the E-E, which seems more martial than the E-D, also goes for a more compact dish...

Timo Saloniemi
That's very interesting, Timo, about FTL-field assisted scans.

Would also the crusiers (larger ships with secondary hulls, bigger, wider spread engines and struts), present a bigger surface area to 'deflect' objects from? There may be multiple ways of clearing debris from space, but there's probably a 'best way' when a ship presents that big of a cross section as the Enterprise or other ships with secondary hulls. 'Big' is relative of course, to the era.

Last edited by Gagarin; September 10 2008 at 08:47 AM. Reason: dyzlectizzzia
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Old September 13 2008, 12:00 AM   #38
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

Gagarin wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
Personally, I'd think the forward-pointing array at the navigational deflector location would be ideal for very long range scanning: the instruments would get a boost from the FTL fields that the deflector projects ahead of the ship. Such scanning would be useful for deep space exploration starships such as the various Enterprises, but less necessary for survey vessels such as the Oberths that first putter to the survey location and settle in orbit, then spend weeks or months doing short range scans.

It may be incidental or coincidental, but ships mostly seen in combat roles (say, Akira or Defiant) seem to have somewhat smaller glowing thingamabobs than their exploration-oriented contemporaries and stablemates. And the E-E, which seems more martial than the E-D, also goes for a more compact dish...

Timo Saloniemi
That's very interesting, Timo, about FTL-field assisted scans.

Would also the crusiers (larger ships with secondary hulls, bigger, wider spread engines and struts), present a bigger surface area to 'deflect' objects from? There may be multiple ways of clearing debris from space, but there's probably a 'best way' when a ship presents that big of a cross section as the Enterprise or other ships with secondary hulls. 'Big' is relative of course, to the era.
They have used the main deflector dish to boost sensor range on-screen.
Voyager used such a technique on at least 2 occasions if I'm not mistaken.
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Old September 13 2008, 12:49 AM   #39
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

I believe its stated that there are smaller deflectors placed all over the ships.

I don't know why you must have a navigational deflector, you guys are thinking federation ships. Think non fed ships. oooommmmuuuuuhhhhh....

Right. So obviously it can be done in the trek universe, its just not the federation way to do it. The obvious answer is that it all depends on the
holographics of the warp engines. The warp engines are creating that bubble fore and aft, so if its a bubble like bubble, you'd have to worry about objects.
But if its a needle nose pointed bubble and has some strength for integrity,
it could just resolve the whole issue by cross modulation of the engine streams in very very large and long triangles.

Not that either way is better or worse, but to some degree smaller or larger deflector grids mean that the job is being shared by those systems in slightly different ratios and the corresponding warpfeilds are thus either bubblisher or pointyisher.

Caveat. I'm a vulcan. I think star trek is great, but cannon to me is entertainment; not science.
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Old September 13 2008, 12:55 AM   #40
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

Timo wrote: View Post
The Reliant's designers certainly saw her that way
That's a bit odd, as the ship's mission in the movie was to plausibly outgun Kirk's ship. After a sneaky first strike anyway. It almost sounds as if Jennings didn't read the script!

Also, if the designers really attempted what they said, why did they give the Reliant so many guns? If anything, by design she was the most militantly aggressive ship design in Star Trek history until, dunno, the Stargazer (again bristling with identifiable weapons) or perhaps even the Defiant.

Timo Saloniemi
i believe that the solution to this is that the constellation and other similar ships have their weapons hull embedded, and the reliant having no large secondary hull distributes the difference some by externalizing the weapons systems. I think it was even stated that under normal conditions the enterprise would outgun the reliant; it was the sneak attack that did them in.

but... i could be wrong...?
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Old September 13 2008, 02:30 AM   #41
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

Some of the Miranda's weapons do seem embedded, as we saw in a few eps ("Sacrifice of Angels" for example). It's probably fair to say those weapons were refits, since they were clearly modern phasers, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be in the original saucer mounts.
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Old September 13 2008, 02:39 AM   #42
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

Unicron wrote: View Post
Some of the Miranda's weapons do seem embedded, as we saw in a few eps ("Sacrifice of Angels" for example). It's probably fair to say those weapons were refits, since they were clearly modern phasers, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be in the original saucer mounts.
I think the point is that the theres degrees of embed versus degrees of externalization. I'm not saying that miranda didn't have embedded weapons, just that the look of having lots of powerful weapons could be due to them being somewhat more external.
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Old September 13 2008, 04:42 AM   #43
James Wright
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

While we're on the subject of the Reliant and the weapons she was armed with, why in TWOK when Reliant fired phasers did the phaser beams originate from the rollbar instead of the primary hull? Reliant had traditional ball turret phasers but they weren't fired in TWOK!

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Old September 13 2008, 09:23 AM   #44
Timo
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

We might argue that the phasers on the roll bar were more powerful ("larger caliber") than the ones on the hull. However, their effects on Kirk's ship certainly don't show this. And Khan didn't wish for maximum effect anyway, he merely wanted to wound Kirk's ship.

I think it was even stated that under normal conditions the enterprise would outgun the reliant; it was the sneak attack that did them in.
Quite possible, even though this isn't actually ever stated on screen. However, the Reliant model as completed has at least as many weapons emplacements as the Enterprise model, and twice the number of those mean-looking torpedo tubes, very prominently positioned. It would seem that aggressive looks were a very important aspect of Reliant design - even if we argue ex post facto that Starfleet designed the ship to be convertible for extra aggression via the roll bar and wasn't quite that militant in the basic configuration.

Certainly the idea that the Reliant would have been a dedicated research vessel was dropped from the final movie, and we instead get the impression that Starfleet decided to do the Genesis testing with the help of a potent warship. Perhaps not Calypso style at all, but more like how the first atomic bomb was carried to the front lines aboard the top-notch heavy cruiser Indianapolis in full combat readiness.

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Old September 16 2008, 03:25 AM   #45
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Re: Navigational Defletor?

Timo wrote: View Post
FWIW, the "warp streaks" would be nicely explained as being interactions of the warp field and the interstellar dust impacting on it...

Timo Saloniemi

That is the most common explanation I have heard- interstellar dust and debris impacting with the warp-field and being dashed into FTL bits. I have also heard it postulated that it is Cherenkov (sp?) radiation owing to photons impacting on the warp field.
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