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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Misc. Star Trek > Trek Literature

Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old September 8 2008, 12:51 AM   #271
Allyn Gibson
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Who can say what Star Trek will be in the future?
I think Star Trek in the future will be different than Star Trek is today, or what Star Trek was twenty years ago. The reason I think this is that Star Trek has long had a tradition of reflecting the times in which it was made.

The original series reflected the liberal viewpoint of the era of Kennedy and Johnson. Certainly Star Trek: The Motion Picture reflected the malaise of the late '70s. You can argue that Star Trek II reflected an Admiral Kirk who had moved from Kennedy to Reagan, and Star Trek: The Next Generation tended to be rather conservative, again, growing out of the conservativism of the 1980's. Star Trek: Deep Space Nine showed signs of a dangerous, multipolar world. Star Trek: Voyager can be viewed through the prism of searching for the original principles that guided Star Trek, and hence a return to the liberalism and the sunny optimism. Maybe Enterprise's problem was that it didn't reflect the Bush era particularly well.

So, as American society changes, Star Trek too will change.

But I don't think Star Trek will evolve in the direction you want of greater militarism, greater misogyny and racism, and greater prejudice, because American society is moving in the entirely opposite direction.

As time passes, what Star Trek is will change, to keep the stories and the characters relevant and fresh to new audiences. But I don't see any way, short of a collapse of the United States and an imposition of a brutal, repressive theocracy in its place, that it would ever become a militaristic, misogynistic milieu.
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Old September 8 2008, 01:00 AM   #272
Dayton3
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Hey I'm not against women.

But I oppose having them in a military organization.

And despite on screen denials, that is what I see StarFleet as.
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Old September 8 2008, 01:04 AM   #273
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Dayton3 wrote: View Post
And despite on screen denials, that is what I see StarFleet as.
Buh?

The characters tell you that Starfleet isn't military, so you ignore them? The characters in question are the people who would know!
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Old September 8 2008, 01:10 AM   #274
Dayton Ward
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Dayton3 wrote: View Post
Hey I'm not against women.

But I oppose having them in a military organization.
Well, speaking as a former military member, and who served in all-male units as well as those of mixed gender, who's been in command of both male and female subordinates, and who's reported to officers and senior enlisted of both genders, I have to say that I don't understand this opposition. If they can meet the standard required to do the particular job, then I say let them have at it.

On the flipside, there were plenty of men I'd like to have seen drop-kicked to the curb because they had no business wearing a uniform. Interestingly, a good number of those had views on women and the military similar to yours.
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Old September 8 2008, 01:22 AM   #275
Dayton3
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Dayton Ward wrote: View Post
Dayton3 wrote: View Post
Hey I'm not against women.

But I oppose having them in a military organization.
Well, speaking as a former military member, and who served in all-male units as well as those of mixed gender, who's been in command of both male and female subordinates, and who's reported to officers and senior enlisted of both genders, I have to say that I don't understand this opposition. If they can meet the standard required to do the particular job, then I say let them have at it.

On the flipside, there were plenty of men I'd like to have seen drop-kicked to the curb because they had no business wearing a uniform. Interestingly, a good number of those had views on women and the military similar to yours.
That information is interesting.

It is great to know.

It changes my opinion not one bit.
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Old September 8 2008, 01:31 AM   #276
Dayton Ward
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

It changes my opinion not one bit.
It'll be tough for me, you know, trying to sleep tonight while dealing with this surprising revelation, but I'll muddle through somehow.

BTW, you didn't answer my question. Why's your opposition to this so strong? Further, why should you care one way or another? Are you planning to enlist?
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Old September 8 2008, 01:32 AM   #277
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Dayton3 wrote: View Post
Hey I'm not against women.

But I oppose having them in a military organization.

And despite on screen denials, that is what I see StarFleet as.
What is the problem with women in the military? And for that matter, since when has Starfleet BEEN the military? Yes, they are the Federation's defense arm, but they're also the exploratory arm as well. In fact, Starfleet seems set on the idea of being first and foremost explorers. Hence all the heavy science equipment on ships of the line. Isn't the motto of the academy translated from Latin as 'From the stars, knowledge'?

One of the things that has ALWAYS been a part of the show is the idea of diversity is the norm. Singling out this or that set of the population as 'unsuited' for this or that is seen as a notion that doesn't have a place in the Federation's society.
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Old September 8 2008, 01:38 AM   #278
Dayton3
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Dayton Ward wrote: View Post
It changes my opinion not one bit.
It'll be tough for me, you know, trying to sleep tonight while dealing with this surprising revelation, but I'll muddle through somehow.

BTW, you didn't answer my question.
You did not ask one.
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Old September 8 2008, 01:42 AM   #279
Dayton Ward
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Yes, I realize that and edited accordingly. Or, you could just ignore it like you have all the others.
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Old September 8 2008, 01:43 AM   #280
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Dayton3 wrote: View Post
Hey I'm not against women.

But I oppose having them in a military organization.

And despite on screen denials, that is what I see StarFleet as.
1) Can you point me to a single, solitary survey that demonstrates that having women in a military organization diminishes its effectiveness?

I have researched this area thoroughly, and so far I've found a few things. The first couple of years after integration were occasionally rough, and military equipment often designed for average sizes of men were unable to be used by women, who tend to be smaller. As far as I can tell that's the sum total of the evidence, and I find it to be extremely thin.

So, minus physiological differences that can ultimately be fixed without gender bias (ie, only people at least 5'6" can man a tank), is there *ANY* evidence that women in a unit after more than 5 years reduces effectiveness?

2) It is a fundamental fact about science fiction that you must accept it on its own terms. That is, transporters and FTL travel are (as far as we know) physical impossibilities, but one does not blast GTTS for including warp drive. It's simply a part of the universe.

Another part of the universe is an organization, structured somewhat like our current military, that nonetheless is primarily based on scientific exploration. As such, it features a lack of certain types of military discipline, many scientists, and diversity as a primary goal. One could make an argument that an organization like this doesn't make sense, but it's irrelevant - this organization is the canvas upon which Star Trek occurs.

You claiming Starfleet is military is like me claiming Harry Potter is devil worship. Sorry - not so much.
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Old September 8 2008, 01:44 AM   #281
Dayton3
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Dayton Ward wrote: View Post
It changes my opinion not one bit.
It'll be tough for me, you know, trying to sleep tonight while dealing with this surprising revelation, but I'll muddle through somehow.

BTW, you didn't answer my question. Why's your opposition to this so strong? Further, why should you care one way or another? Are you planning to enlist?
I believe that a military unit performs best with fewer differences between their individual members.

Plus, no amount of training disguises the fact that men are stronger than women for the most part. And physical strength is important.

It is important now. It was important 300 years ago. It will be important 300 years from now.
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Old September 8 2008, 01:46 AM   #282
Dayton3
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Thrawn wrote: View Post

Another part of the universe is an organization, structured somewhat like our current military, that nonetheless is primarily based on scientific exploration. As such, it features a lack of certain types of military discipline, many scientists, and diversity as a primary goal. One could make an argument that an organization like this doesn't make sense, but it's irrelevant - this organization is the canvas upon which Star Trek occurs.

.
Canvas's can change.
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Old September 8 2008, 01:47 AM   #283
Dayton Ward
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

If strength were the sole criteria on which to judge one's fitness for military service, you might have a point. In reality, of course, it's not.
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Old September 8 2008, 01:49 AM   #284
Thrawn
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Dayton3 wrote: View Post
Thrawn wrote: View Post

Another part of the universe is an organization, structured somewhat like our current military, that nonetheless is primarily based on scientific exploration. As such, it features a lack of certain types of military discipline, many scientists, and diversity as a primary goal. One could make an argument that an organization like this doesn't make sense, but it's irrelevant - this organization is the canvas upon which Star Trek occurs.

.
Canvas's can change.
This one won't. Just like we won't suddenly have a book that says "whoops, turns out transporters don't exist!"
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Old September 8 2008, 01:52 AM   #285
Dayton3
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Re: Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

Thrawn wrote: View Post
Dayton3 wrote: View Post
Thrawn wrote: View Post

Another part of the universe is an organization, structured somewhat like our current military, that nonetheless is primarily based on scientific exploration. As such, it features a lack of certain types of military discipline, many scientists, and diversity as a primary goal. One could make an argument that an organization like this doesn't make sense, but it's irrelevant - this organization is the canvas upon which Star Trek occurs.

.
Canvas's can change.
This one won't. Just like we won't suddenly have a book that says "whoops, turns out transporters don't exist!"
Are you so sure about that?

What if we had a book set in the decades after Voyager perhaps and the "matter transmitter" transporters have been completely replaced by "micro warp field" transporters?
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