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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old September 5 2008, 05:23 AM   #1
James Wright
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A Wolf 359?

We all know that Starfleet lost 39 starships and 11,000 personnel at Wolf 359 but, does anyone know or can speculate as to how many people survived the battle?
Just curious after watching the video on youtube!
Thanks

JDW
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Old September 5 2008, 05:57 AM   #2
LeadHead
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Re: A Wolf 359?

There's really no easy way to answer that question. Ships of all sizes and shapes were involved in that battle. 39 ships were lost but 48 were mobilized.

Some ships were destroyed instantly, others like the Saratoga were damaged and left for dead.

The Enterprise apparently did no recovery operations and there were no life signs when they reached the battle site, so the survivors were likly picked up by whatever ships were left.
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Old September 5 2008, 07:45 AM   #3
Huntingdon
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Re: A Wolf 359?

Where did the number 48 comes from?

Most speculation I've seen centres around the idea that one ship survived, since Hanson mentioned 'forty ships' - although this could well have been a case of giving a rough estimate. He mentioned Klingon support so they could conceivably have been involved.

Ships speculated to have survived were either the Ahwahnee or the Endeavour. Ahwahnee because it was referenced later - but with a different registry. Endeavour on an unconnected reference in Voyager about a Borg encounter.

We saw about 20 survivors in Saratoga's pod that presumably made it. A couple made it back to the Delta Quadrant as Borg drones. Other than that - it's speculation with no basis.
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Old September 5 2008, 07:47 AM   #4
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Re: A Wolf 359?

48 were mobilized.
Where does that figure come from?

I mean, it's perfectly plausible, but it doesn't seem to be based on anything on screen. The known names of starships that might have been present amount to barely over twenty, and that's including names from computer games and the like.

The Enterprise apparently did no recovery operations and there were no life signs when they reached the battle site, so the survivors were likly picked up by whatever ships were left.
And one might think they went on some sort of doomsday mode, deciding not to go to the nearby Earth because that was a lost cause already, nor to answer any hails because the Borg might track them down.

Which prompts one to think that there weren't that many survivor ships after all. Perhaps just two or three, of small and weak types that would not have offered credible resistance anyway, and were better used for spiriting at least a few examples of H.sapiens to the safety of some faraway hideout planet.

I guess that after our TNG heroes stopped the Borg, those brave shipfuls of new Adams and Eves got a reputation they'd rather forget about... I wonder which was the greater pariah in "Emissary", the traitor-to-mankind Picard or the running-for-his-life-coward Sisko?

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Old September 5 2008, 07:54 PM   #5
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Re: A Wolf 359?

Yeah, the identified casualties from various sources are somewhere in the 15-20 range, so probably a good half of the combatants haven't been identified.
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Old September 6 2008, 02:43 AM   #6
James Wright
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Re: A Wolf 359?

Why do you consider Sisko a coward or Picard a Traitor?
Remember Picard was forced to do what he did against his will and Sisko didn't have anything left to fight the Borg with.
One thing I can't figure out is why the Borg totally destroyed the Saratoga while leaving the wreakage of the other starships to be found by Enterprise!?

JDW
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Old September 6 2008, 01:26 PM   #7
Jono
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Re: A Wolf 359?

^ People would view Picard unfavourable (like Sisko did) no matter if he had no choice in the matter or not. It is very human off us to what to have someone else to blame for any pain or suffering we experience. They would not care that if assimilated that Picard had no control over his actions, they would say he should have resisted more or killed himself before he led an attack that killed 11,000 of his colleagues and civilians.

As for Sisko I don't see how he can be considered a coward. His ship was disabled and about to explode, abandoning ship was what should be done. Against the Borg it brings up an interesting question that I can't remember been dealt with on TV, that by evacuating the ship you could be delivering your crew and their families straight into the hands of the Borg. Wouldn't be surprised if there aren't Starfleet officers who would think that not evacuating the ship and guarranteeing the death of all onboard would be the right/best course of action then letting them live on as part of the Borg Collective.
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Old September 6 2008, 06:12 PM   #8
James Wright
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Re: A Wolf 359?

After being kidnapped by the Borg how could Picard have killed himself?
Remember what he told his brother after their fight in the vineyard?

JDW
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Old September 6 2008, 07:13 PM   #9
JoeZhang
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Re: A Wolf 359?

rofeta wrote: View Post
^ People would view Picard unfavourable (like Sisko did) no matter if he had no choice in the matter or not. It is very human off us to what to have someone else to blame for any pain or suffering we experience. They would not care that if assimilated that Picard had no control over his actions, they would say he should have resisted more or killed himself before he led an attack that killed 11,000 of his colleagues and civilians.

As for Sisko I don't see how he can be considered a coward. His ship was disabled and about to explode, abandoning ship was what should be done. Against the Borg it brings up an interesting question that I can't remember been dealt with on TV, that by evacuating the ship you could be delivering your crew and their families straight into the hands of the Borg. Wouldn't be surprised if there aren't Starfleet officers who would think that not evacuating the ship and guarranteeing the death of all onboard would be the right/best course of action then letting them live on as part of the Borg Collective.

I always thought that missed a trick on DS9 - a reasonable borg story that could have been done (if handled right) is that Sisko and the crew encounter the borg and one of the drones is Jennifer, who wasn't actually as dead as they thought.
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Old September 7 2008, 01:15 AM   #10
DarthPipes
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Re: A Wolf 359?

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
rofeta wrote: View Post
^ People would view Picard unfavourable (like Sisko did) no matter if he had no choice in the matter or not. It is very human off us to what to have someone else to blame for any pain or suffering we experience. They would not care that if assimilated that Picard had no control over his actions, they would say he should have resisted more or killed himself before he led an attack that killed 11,000 of his colleagues and civilians.

As for Sisko I don't see how he can be considered a coward. His ship was disabled and about to explode, abandoning ship was what should be done. Against the Borg it brings up an interesting question that I can't remember been dealt with on TV, that by evacuating the ship you could be delivering your crew and their families straight into the hands of the Borg. Wouldn't be surprised if there aren't Starfleet officers who would think that not evacuating the ship and guarranteeing the death of all onboard would be the right/best course of action then letting them live on as part of the Borg Collective.

I always thought that missed a trick on DS9 - a reasonable borg story that could have been done (if handled right) is that Sisko and the crew encounter the borg and one of the drones is Jennifer, who wasn't actually as dead as they thought.
That would have been an intriguing storyline. Though I'd still keep Sisko as a widower. But it could have played like the Mirror Universe episodes...Sisko feels like he has Jennifer back, only to lose her again.

Criticizing Sisko for running is stupid. The ship was disabled and on the verge of blowing up. Retreat (as well as saving whoever he could) was the only possible thing he could do.
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Old September 7 2008, 01:49 AM   #11
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Re: A Wolf 359?

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
rofeta wrote: View Post
^ People would view Picard unfavourable (like Sisko did) no matter if he had no choice in the matter or not. It is very human off us to what to have someone else to blame for any pain or suffering we experience. They would not care that if assimilated that Picard had no control over his actions, they would say he should have resisted more or killed himself before he led an attack that killed 11,000 of his colleagues and civilians.

As for Sisko I don't see how he can be considered a coward. His ship was disabled and about to explode, abandoning ship was what should be done. Against the Borg it brings up an interesting question that I can't remember been dealt with on TV, that by evacuating the ship you could be delivering your crew and their families straight into the hands of the Borg. Wouldn't be surprised if there aren't Starfleet officers who would think that not evacuating the ship and guarranteeing the death of all onboard would be the right/best course of action then letting them live on as part of the Borg Collective.

I always thought that missed a trick on DS9 - a reasonable borg story that could have been done (if handled right) is that Sisko and the crew encounter the borg and one of the drones is Jennifer, who wasn't actually as dead as they thought.
Yeah, I think Babylon 5 already covered that turf with Sheridan's wife


As for Sisko and Picard, I can easily see why people would view Picard as a traitor to the Federation; very likely a rep that wasn't helped when he allowed Hugh to return to the Borg without the Borg comp-virus installed in him. And I don't see Sisko as a coward, he had to get off the ship and save his son and as many people as he could. All though I can very well see other Wolf survivors blaming themselves for not staying and fighting-- survivor's guilt and all that.
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Old September 7 2008, 02:53 AM   #12
DarthPipes
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Re: A Wolf 359?

The Hugh thing was a mistake by Picard. I can see how that would fuel the perception of him as a traitor or at the very least, a Borg sympathizer.
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Old September 7 2008, 04:27 AM   #13
Jono
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Re: A Wolf 359?

JDW wrote: View Post
After being kidnapped by the Borg how could Picard have killed himself?
Remember what he told his brother after their fight in the vineyard?

JDW
You've missed my point. It doesn't matter what Picard could do or could not do some people would blame him because their emotion would rule over any logic or evidence to the contrary. They want someone to blame, someone to focus their anger and hatred towards whether their target fully deserves it or not.
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Old September 7 2008, 05:30 AM   #14
DarthPipes
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Re: A Wolf 359?

Like Sisko. I remember them mentioning in the TV Guide that Sisko knew that Picard wasn't in control of his actions but still was angry with him anyway.
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Old September 7 2008, 06:34 AM   #15
James Wright
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Re: A Wolf 359?

I understand what you're saying, what gets me is those people you say would view Picard unfavourably don't understand what he went through.
Was it Picard's fault he got assimilated?

JDW
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