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Old September 4 2008, 12:40 AM   #31
EJD1984
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Re: Data - B4 Question

That's it! Just rain on my parade!

Christopher wrote: View Post
It wasn't a purposeful set up, it was a safety net.
OK, maybe the term "purposeful set up" may have been a bit too exact - it was made as a "possible storyline to explore"

Christopher wrote: View Post
The final shots of TWOK, with Spock's tube intact on Genesis and Nimoy giving the voiceover, weren't put in because the filmmakers knew for a fact that Nimoy would be returning
In a few interviews I've read over the years, Bennet, Myer, and Nimoy have said that the final tube and voice over were added due to the fact that after filming had ended Nimoy said at the wrap party "I had a lot of fun doing this movie, I can't wait to do the next one" So they quickly filmed the tube scene as their "out" to bring Spock back.

Christopher wrote: View Post
I just find it thoroughly unbelievable that a prototype as crude as B-4 would ever be capable of containing any sizeable percentage of Data's consciousness. Telling the story that way would require glossing over most of what was established about the character in NEM. At most, B-4 might be able to grow to the point of being a functional child with occasional flashes of Data's memory.
The one issue that wasn't addressed, and may have been way to technically involved for a movie. How do we know that B4 may have just been loaded with basic software, basically to just the level of a toddler, and may have actually had the capacity to eventually evolve and grow, though at a much slower pace (though helped along with Data's programing and memories). In fact Data was initially somewhat childlike and we got to watch him evolve and grow over time. Therefore B4 could grow into his own character, possibly even surpassing Data - in time.

"We can sometimes surpass the sum of our parts"
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Old September 4 2008, 01:08 AM   #32
Dayton Ward
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Re: Data - B4 Question

^ Sure, that's possible...but that's not "bringing Data back," which is where this thread started.
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Old September 4 2008, 01:41 AM   #33
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Re: Data - B4 Question

I think it's a hardware issue, not a software one. B-4 is an earlier prototype with a less advanced neural network. His processing ability is just not on the same level. He got all the software he could ever need when Data did the memory download, but his hardware just wasn't able to handle it.
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Old September 4 2008, 01:52 AM   #34
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Re: Data - B4 Question

Dayton Ward wrote: View Post
^ Sure, that's possible...but that's not "bringing Data back," which is where this thread started.

I know, I know.......................just admitting defeat..........

Also referencing the great quote "There are always (dramatic pause) Possibilities"
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Old September 4 2008, 02:01 AM   #35
EJD1984
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Re: Data - B4 Question

Christopher wrote: View Post
I think it's a hardware issue, not a software one. B-4 is an earlier prototype with a less advanced neural network. His processing ability is just not on the same level. He got all the software he could ever need when Data did the memory download, but his hardware just wasn't able to handle it.
For the sake of debate - In comparison, then it could argued that humans are not as advanced as Data (processing, memory storage/retrieval), at out current state of evolution. Maybe then: Less advanced neural network + Segments of Data's memories, software = Closer to Human.

Geordi did make the comment "Maybe it'll just take longer for him (B4) to incorporate the download" - paraphrasing

So there were a few "out clauses", if the B4/Data storyline/issue was to have been revisited in a future Nxt Gen movie.
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Old September 4 2008, 02:13 AM   #36
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Re: Data - B4 Question

JoeZhang wrote: View Post
It's the big reveal of Destiny - he's actually become the king of the Borg. The end of the third book is a showtune followed by a comedy moment that isn't actually fun.

HEY HEY how about some spoiler warnings next time eh?

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Old September 4 2008, 02:32 AM   #37
Rush Limborg
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Re: Data - B4 Question

At most, B-4 might be able to grow to the point of being a functional child with occasional flashes of Data's memory. And I think that's potentially a hell of a lot more interesting than resurrecting Data.
Interesting note: As I have stated before, I've written a number of short stories, which I had intended to send to Strange New Worlds. Alas, this was not to be.

Anyway, my final short story (as of now) was a post-Nemesis tale, focusing on B-4, and the true beginning of his growth. (As I recall, it involves Geordi and Leah Brahms --not to mention Barclay....) Actually, I treated this growth much like Chris is suggesting.

Proof once again of the ol' saying: Great Minds Think Alike.
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Old September 4 2008, 02:38 AM   #38
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Re: Data - B4 Question

And even a blind squirrel finds a nut now and again.
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Old September 4 2008, 03:37 AM   #39
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Re: Data - B4 Question

EJD1984 wrote: View Post
For the sake of debate - In comparison, then it could argued that humans are not as advanced as Data (processing, memory storage/retrieval), at out current state of evolution. Maybe then: Less advanced neural network + Segments of Data's memories, software = Closer to Human.
No, not really. In terms of raw capacity and speed, Data surpassed us, but in terms of neural-network architecture, he was still a step or two behind us on the developmental scale. Data was created to mimic the way a human mind works, and though he approached that goal more successfully than any previous known human-made AI, he still fell short in terms of emotion and socialization skills. Indeed, he was arguably surpassed by subsequent AIs such as the Doctor and Vic Fontaine, who don't have Data's psychological limitations.

B-4 is more analogous to, say, a chimpanzee. A chimp is capable of learning language and other skills at about the level of a small human child, but not beyond. You can teach a chimp a vocabulary of hundreds of words, but it takes a lot longer than with a human child, and there's a limit to how much it can learn. Even if, say, Spock were to mind-meld with a chimp and give it all his memories, the chimp might learn some things no chimp had ever known before, but it would still perceive and respond to that knowledge in its own chimply way, and it would never be able to qualify as a starship science officer.

Geordi did make the comment "Maybe it'll just take longer for him (B4) to incorporate the download" - paraphrasing
I addressed this point already in the final paragraph of post #22.

So there were a few "out clauses", if the B4/Data storyline/issue was to have been revisited in a future Nxt Gen movie.
Of course there were out clauses; the whole memory-download idea was a blatant out clause. But for the reasons I've explained, I wouldn't have found it credible if a subsequent movie had used it to resurrect Data (though I guess it pales next to my credibility issues with Genesis and the fal tor pan), and I'm quite happy that the books have taken a different route. There was a pretty good Data-resurrection story in SNW10, and that was entertaining as a wish-fulfillment piece, but I just don't see it as technically feasible.
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Old September 4 2008, 03:59 AM   #40
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Re: Data - B4 Question

What if B-4 was given an experimental procedure that made him smarter temporarily? And it had been tested on his pet robotic tribble, named after an ancient Earth programming language? But the tribble died, so B-4 had to go back to being the way he was before.

It could be called Flowers for ALGOL-9.
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Old September 4 2008, 04:02 AM   #41
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Re: Data - B4 Question

^ Guards. Seize him.
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Old September 4 2008, 04:19 AM   #42
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Re: Data - B4 Question

Steve Mollmann wrote: View Post
What if B-4 was given an experimental procedure that made him smarter temporarily? And it had been tested on his pet robotic tribble, named after an ancient Earth programming language? But the tribble died, so B-4 had to go back to being the way he was before.

It could be called Flowers for ALGOL-9.
Somehow, I knew something to 'Flowers for Algernon' effect would creep up in here. (And, yes, if it hadn't I would have suggested a variation of it myself. )

Personally, I'd rather see the usage of B-4 (if any) take a different tack. B-4 would presumably have this pressure on him to be like Data, and (assuming he understood the pressure, of course) would likely want to become as different from Data as he could. That, to me, would make a more interesting story than 'how B-4 turned into Data 2.0.'
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Old September 4 2008, 08:50 AM   #43
Turtletrekker
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Re: Data - B4 Question

EJD1984 wrote: View Post

In a few interviews I've read over the years, Bennet, Myer, and Nimoy have said that the final tube and voice over were added due to the fact that after filming had ended Nimoy said at the wrap party "I had a lot of fun doing this movie, I can't wait to do the next one" So they quickly filmed the tube scene as their "out" to bring Spock back.
No, Nimoy said that after seeing the final cut of the film.
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Old September 4 2008, 11:10 AM   #44
Baerbel Haddrell
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Re: Data - B4 Question

Technology is advancing so quickly. Even here in the real world, I am amazed sometimes how fast technology advances.

I agree, the way B-4 is now, it is not likely that he could make a lot of progress, if at all. But B-4 doesn`t age. He could be around for a VERY long time and a lot is possible that might advance him.

My personal preference is that B-4 won`t become a Data with a different personality but in time gain what we call "normal" intelligence. I don`t see why B-4 should remain severely learning disabled forever.
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Old September 4 2008, 12:04 PM   #45
EJD1984
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Re: Data - B4 Question

Turtletrekker wrote: View Post
EJD1984 wrote: View Post

In a few interviews I've read over the years, Bennet, Myer, and Nimoy have said that the final tube and voice over were added due to the fact that after filming had ended Nimoy said at the wrap party "I had a lot of fun doing this movie, I can't wait to do the next one" So they quickly filmed the tube scene as their "out" to bring Spock back.
No, Nimoy said that after seeing the final cut of the film.
OK - It's been 25+ years - B4's dimished memory capacity is slowly creeping in.........LOL
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