A Starfleet?

[James Wright]

Does anybody have any idea how many ships Starfleet had in commission during the Enterprise, TOS & TNG eras?
Thanks!

JDW

[Nedersong]

It's not really clear.

The nx-01 was the first of its kind and no others had been made.

There were allegedly only twelve Constitution class.

But towards the end of DS9 they had hundreds of ships. They were mentioning losses of around 150 os so, but i am unclear as to the exact number.

[Augustus]

It seems that by the time of DS9, there were thousands of ships... otherwise they couldn't sustain losses of "150 or so"

[warriorsfan]

JDW wrote:

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Does anybody have any idea how many ships Starfleet had in commission during the Enterprise, TOS & TNG eras?
Thanks!

JDW

I got the impression that Starfleet during the Ent era only had a few dozen ships or so at best. We saw several smaller Starfleet vessels (like the Saratoga) in addition to the NX-class.

TOS? It's anyone's guess. If there really were 12 Constitutions (which I really can't believe given the events of The Ultimate Computer), then there still would undoubtedly be numerous smaller vessels. You can't defend the Federation with 12 ships. If I had to guess, I would say the TOS-era Starfleet probably had a couple of hundred ships at least.

TNG-era would have had several thousand.

[James Wright]

The thing I can't figure out is, as the Federation added member planets why didn't Starfleet incorporate those fleets into Starfleet?
Starfleet was an earth originization correct!?
Thanks,

JDW

[JNG]

JDW wrote:

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The thing I can't figure out is, as the Federation added member planets why didn't Starfleet incorporate those fleets into Starfleet?
Starfleet was an earth originization correct!?
Thanks,

JDW

There *was* an Earth Starfleet, which presumably became part of the Federation Starfleet when the Federation came together. I'm not sure why you have concluded other member planets did not integrate their fleets as well. It seems perfectly reasonable that they would have.

The mature Federation Starfleet ships are designed and constructed by the combined efforts of all members. Earth is merely one member. The ships have English written on them because it's an American TV show, and humans appear common in Starfleet because makeup costs money and time. However, the creative intention was to show the Federation Starfleet as a combined service of, by and for all the Federation members.

There are probably between five and eight thousand ships of the line in Starfleet in TNG era. Before the Dominion War, it is probably around the higher figure, and afterwards it's probably the lower figure.

[ShinRa Actual]

It also depends on what you consider a 'ship' Do you mean frontline, fairly large and 'notable' ships like Enterprise, or are you counting the fleet train and other logistics, too (Tugs, freighters, repair ships, shuttles, etc). Even if you're just counting 'major combatants', there's likely to be other ships besides the NX-01 or Constitution Class in service. Enterprise showed the Intrepid and another design, so it's likely they were the Destroyers to the NX class cruisers, with similar smaller and possibly larger ships to the Constitution class cruisers.

[Timo]

To be sure, the ENT Intrepid was basically just as large as NX-01. Archer's ship isn't marketed as Earth's first starship at any point of the show: it is only marketed as the first of Earth's supposedly many starships that is capable of warp 5 travel and subsequently exploration of areas that remain unknown to Earth.

One might assume that Earth's Starfleet (or UESF for short) had a lot of relatively weak but still reasonably large warships for show. Since UE couldn't do any meaningful exploration with the old engines, but still had the technology and resources to build ships such as the Boomer transports, construction of a showpiece warfleet would seem like a natural step for the government to take.

Once other navies joined in and created the UFP Starfleet, it might be that Earth's dedicated exploration ships remained the combined fleet's only dedicated exploration asset. The older players might have already explored all they wanted, and would no longer have dedicated ships in their inventories. Thus, when the UFP Starfleet began to profile itself as an exploration organization, Earth hardware would be a major influence.

Half a dozen other lines of speculation are equally valid, though. Neither ENT nor TOS requires us to know anything about the size of Starfleet off screen, and the episodes would play out much the same regardless of whether there were two other ships, or twenty thousand.

Timo Saloniemi

[USS KG5]

JDW wrote:

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Does anybody have any idea how many ships Starfleet had in commission during the Enterprise, TOS & TNG eras?
Thanks!

JDW

Enterprise: A few dozen
TOS: A few hundred, possibly a couple of thousand.
TNG: Upwards of 10,000.

[USS KG5]

JNG wrote:

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There are probably between five and eight thousand ships of the line in Starfleet in TNG era. Before the Dominion War, it is probably around the higher figure, and afterwards it's probably the lower figure.

See I don't get this idea that the Federation had fewer ships in commission at the end of the war.

Historically wartime fleets are always massively larger than their peacetime equivalents. Even Starfleet has some limitations on resources, and cannot have fleets of 500 ships each sitting around in peacetime.

I would expect Starfleet probably doubled in size during the Dominion War, probably lost overall around 3000 odd ships of all sizes by the end, but would likely have built as many if not more.

[Timo]

To be sure, we don't have direct evidence of any ships being built during the war. The only "new" ship to emerge would have been the Sao Paulo, but she might also have been in existence and service/mothballs since before the war, even though the implication is that she's fresh off the docks.

It might be that it takes several years to build any reasonably sized combat starship. Which would probably mean that Starfleet would gain significantly in ships - but at the very end of the war, rather than during it. Whether that gain would balance the losses is unknown.

Timo Saloniemi

[C.E. Evans]

There's also the issue of need to contend with as well. Given the size of the Federation, one might argue that Starfleet should have somewhere close to a million or so ships. But if Starfleet can cover it's responsibilities with much fewer vessels, then it's likely to do that as well, IMO.

I don't think there's any way to adequately defend any area spanning thousands of light-years unless you simply fill the skies thick with vessels. But I get the impression that a single starship covers quite a lot of territory and that large numbers of vessels are only needed during times of war.

In such occasions, we may see Starfleet rely on everything from previously mothballed older vessels to even "kitbash" ships culled from multiple designs to increase its numbers dramatically in a hurry...

[Sector 7]

C.E. Evans wrote:

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In such occasions, we may see Starfleet rely on everything from previously mothballed older vessels to even "kitbash" ships culled from multiple designs to increase its numbers dramatically in a hurry...

I always thought this to be the reason for all the kitbashes seen on Star Trek. They cobbled together whatever they could to either maintain a war effort or replace losses.

[USS KG5]

Timo wrote:

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To be sure, we don't have direct evidence of any ships being built during the war. The only "new" ship to emerge would have been the Sao Paulo, but she might also have been in existence and service/mothballs since before the war, even though the implication is that she's fresh off the docks.
...
It might be that it takes several years to build any reasonably sized combat starship. Which would probably mean that Starfleet would gain significantly in ships - but at the very end of the war, rather than during it. Whether that gain would balance the losses is unknown.

I disagree here. There is a lot of talk of ship building during the lull in the Dominion War, though the classes under construction may be of some debate. I find the idea that the Federation, an organisation of massive resources, with its economy tilted definitely towards war, would take 3-4 years to build desperately needed ships, a bit odd.

Many ships were built is the impression I get, as well as the hundreds taken from mothballs of Miranda and Excelsior design, Starfleet might have needed hundreds of Akiras, Steamrunners, Intrepids and Defiants.

[Deks]

I also very much so disagree with the assumption that the Federation needs years to construct a large star-ship.
While granted it IS possible, it's also unlikely given the amount of Federation resources, how large it actually is, it's technological capabilities (not to mention the humongous mushroom type star-bases).

Also, let's keep in mind that what was seen onscreen can hardly be taken as a direct interpretation all the time since A LOT of things were simplified (dumb-ed down) for the TV in favor of ... ding ding ding ... DRAMA.

I would at the very least be generous and say that SF has a minimum of 8000 combat/exploratory star-ships at their disposal.
Given the amount of space the Federation has, it's hardly a wild number.

DS9 on the other hand would have you think that SF has about 1500 ships at it's disposal.
I'd shoot the Federation officials myself if they had such a pitiful number of ships.

Granted, SF is not a military organization, but if you want to be effective and prepared for a potential war with a species that wants you exterminated ... then have an actual fleet capable of doing the job of protecting the amount of territory you have at your disposal.
Nothing more, nothing less.