Read & Reread "Greater Than The Sum"- My Opinion (Spoilers)

[OptimusPete]

I'm about half way through the book and although I'm enjoying it I do find the character of T'rysa very grating. I found the way she got onto the ship didn't speak very highly of starfleets selection process for choosing memebers of its supposedly elite crew. How pissed off would you have been if you were one of the highly qualified candidates for the position T'rysa eventually got? You bust your hump for years to be the best in your field and keep your nose clean but some immature screw up gets the job just cos Picard feels sorry for her? Harsh!

As for the comparisions to Barclay I think he worked as a screw up character because we didn't actually ever see that much of him he just popped up here and there making it easier for the folks who didn't like him to tolerate him.

All in all so far, I'm enjoying the story and finding it quite accessable even though its my first TNG relaunch book. I'd probably give it three and a half out of five so far cos although I dislike T'rysa I do like the way the TNG originals are being written, they all seem very much in character, I especilly like the little exchange between Worf and Geordi after the conference when Worf comments on the lack of men left on the bridge crew

[JD]

I just finished this last night, and I loved it, it was easily one of the very best Borg stories I've ever read or watched.
I know a lot of people have been complaining about T'Ryssa, but I actually really liked her. I'll admit it did take a couple of chapters for me to warm up to her, but once I did she became one of my favorite parts of the book. Up thread someone compared her to a Joss Whedon character, and I think that is actually pretty accurate and it's also one of the reason why I liked her so much.

I also really liked the other new characters, they all seem to be very interesting. Especially Choudhury, she is definitely a very different kind of security chief that we are used to. I really think it was kind of fun the way you guys went from Leybenzon, who only cared about fighting, to Choudhury, who cries after she has to take part in a battle. Was this done on purpose? The conversation between her and Worf was really interesting, I really liked the way that you had Worf describe Klingon honor. Elfiki seemed pretty cool too, although she did seem to be the least developed of the new characters. I know that she was created by David Mack for Destiny, so I'm really hoping that we get more development of her there.

The other main characters were also all very well written. I'm really happy to see that Picard and Crusher are married, I've been waiting for this since All Good Things (yes, I know that was an alternate future that isn't going to happen). The whole baby thing was actually very well handled in my opinion, and I really liked the way that you tied Picard's Kamin (Kamen?) life into that who plotline. I've always thought that those events had to have had a big impact on Picard, and I'm really glad to see that those events and there impact are finally being acknowledged. I was really glad to see you actually give Geordi some screen time too, because I think he's always been a fairly underused character since the series ended. I just wish that you could have gotten him and Dina together, because they seemed to hit it off pretty well in their scene together and Geordi's always been rather unlucky when it comes to women.

Now as for the Borg, I really liked the way that you were able to explain away a lot of the inconsistencies and tie up the loose ends. I'm so glad that you finally explained why some of the Borg seemed to have never been anything but Borg, because that's been something that's always bugged me. The inclusion of a character from the Unimatrix Zero rebellion also made me really happy, because that is something I've been wanting to see more of since they first introduced them in the Voyager 2 parter. I was also really glad to see that Hugh was brought back, although I do wish he could have survived the story. Now don't get me wrong, I'm glad that he got to go the way he did, because I really think that that was a very appropriate close to his story. I just wish he could have survived so that there was a possibilty that he could pop back up, because I've always thought he was a interesting character.
The new alien that you created for the story was really cool and unique. I thought it was really cool that it was kind of a counterpoint to the Borg in a way.
The epilouge was a really great set for Destiny, IMO. Given his attitude I think the way that Leybezon died was very approprite, I just wish he didn't give the Borg their new weapon in the process. I especially liked the Borg's message, that had to be one of the scariest things I've read in a Trek book.
Final score 9.5/10
Now we just need Destiny. Is it September yet???

[Christopher]

OptimusPete wrote:

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I'm about half way through the book and although I'm enjoying it I do find the character of T'rysa very grating. I found the way she got onto the ship didn't speak very highly of starfleets selection process for choosing memebers of its supposedly elite crew. How pissed off would you have been if you were one of the highly qualified candidates for the position T'rysa eventually got? You bust your hump for years to be the best in your field and keep your nose clean but some immature screw up gets the job just cos Picard feels sorry for her? Harsh!

It wasn't just because he felt sorry for her. It was because, as she rightly pointed out, she was the only person available in all of Starfleet who'd actually been to the cluster and contacted the entity. It was reasonable to assume that she could thus prove essential to the success of the mission, and indeed she did.

Also, perhaps, because he sensed she deserved an opportunity to prove herself. The people who've busted their humps for years and kept their noses clean don't need any help; they can handle themselves. But someone who has untapped potential and a genuine willingness to start developing it is someone who deserves to be given the opportunity. I've always felt it's backwards the way our schools and other institutions tend to encourage and support those who are already doing well more than those who could improve if given extra encouragement and support.

As for the comparisions to Barclay I think he worked as a screw up character because we didn't actually ever see that much of him he just popped up here and there making it easier for the folks who didn't like him to tolerate him.

We saw a great deal of Barclay in his introductory episode and in later focus episodes, and little or none of him the rest of the time. Trys is no different -- naturally her debut story needed to establish her, but she won't be featured equally in every story to follow, any more than any other character.

...I do like the way the TNG originals are being written, they all seem very much in character, I especilly like the little exchange between Worf and Geordi after the conference when Worf comments on the lack of men left on the bridge crew

Glad you liked that bit. It really felt like a true Worf moment when it came to me.

JD wrote:

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I also really liked the other new characters, they all seem to be very interesting. Especially Choudhury, she is definitely a very different kind of security chief that we are used to. I really think it was kind of fun the way you guys went from Leybenzon, who only cared about fighting, to Choudhury, who cries after she has to take part in a battle. Was this done on purpose?

Not exactly. I have felt for a while that too many Starfleet security characters fall into the tough guy/warrior category, and I've always preferred to play against that, something I initially did when I created Rennan Konya for SCE. (It was my hope that he would become a foil and a balance for the more aggressive Corsi, but it didn't work out that way.)

And with Choudhury, Dave had already established the character name, and I liked the idea of giving her an Indian cultural identity; too many "ethnic" human characters in Trek are still culturally American, when you get right down to it. So I wanted her to be a Hindu, and nonviolence is a part of that cultural tradition. I liked the fact that it was a very different direction from Leybenzon, but that wasn't the sole, specific reason for her being the way she is.

Now as for the Borg, I really liked the way that you were able to explain away a lot of the inconsistencies and tie up the loose ends. I'm so glad that you finally explained why some of the Borg seemed to have never been anything but Borg, because that's been something that's always bugged me.

Well, that's the way they originally were in TNG. "Q Who" said they weren't interested in people, only their technology. BoBW introduced the idea of them assimilating people, but only with Picard, and it was treated as a special case. The drones in "I, Borg" and "Descent" were portrayed as having no identity but Borg. The idea of wholesale assimilation was a retcon introduced in First Contact and elaborated on in VGR. I'm glad I was able to find a way to reconcile TNG-style Borg with FC/VGR-style Borg.

I especially liked the Borg's message, that had to be one of the scariest things I've read in a Trek book.

Glad to hear it. It was a hard balance to find -- making them sound angry and threatening without losing their Borg coldness and contempt.

[JD]

Christopher wrote:

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Well, that's the way they originally were in TNG. "Q Who" said they weren't interested in people, only their technology. BoBW introduced the idea of them assimilating people, but only with Picard, and it was treated as a special case. The drones in "I, Borg" and "Descent" were portrayed as having no identity but Borg. The idea of wholesale assimilation was a retcon introduced in First Contact and elaborated on in VGR. I'm glad I was able to find a way to reconcile TNG-style Borg with FC/VGR-style Borg.

Yeah, I understand that. That was what I was what I was talking about when I said inconsitancies.

[ClayinCA]

David Mack wrote:

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It will all make sense when it's done. Maybe you'll still feel this way when Destiny concludes in December...

...and maybe you won't.

Oh, I have complete faith in you, David. It's more that with Borg-book after Borg-book, I just find myself thinking, "There better be a plan here...!"

Idoliside wrote:

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Or monkey's at typewriters...

...well they tried with hamlet and that failed...

Actually, the monkeys did fine - it's just that they wrote it in the original Klingon...

Therin of Andor wrote:

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Well, I'm coming into this thread late, having avoided it until I finished GttS.

I just finished it a few minutes ago. I'm hardly game to read the rest of the thread. Your post has no doubt been fully addressed by others, and probably more eloquently. But allow me to say this:

Star Trek novels are not for you.

Sing it, brutha!

Therin of Andor wrote:

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T'Ryssa annoyed everyone

Not me - I thought she was great! My favourite new Trek character since Ensign Ro (with whom she shares certain similarities, now that I think of it).

Therin of Andor wrote:

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All the way through this novel I found myself cheering and smiling.

Me too - as I've said, it's my favourite post-Nemesis book, along with Q&A.

Christopher wrote:

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Well, that's the way they originally were in TNG. "Q Who" said they weren't interested in people, only their technology. BoBW introduced the idea of them assimilating people, but only with Picard, and it was treated as a special case. The drones in "I, Borg" and "Descent" were portrayed as having no identity but Borg. The idea of wholesale assimilation was a retcon introduced in First Contact and elaborated on in VGR. I'm glad I was able to find a way to reconcile TNG-style Borg with FC/VGR-style Borg.

This was one of the biggest criticisms I had with the Borg from First Contact onwards. Your reconciliation of the two forms of Borg actually helps me enjoy First Contact more, actually!

[OptimusPete]

Christopher wrote:

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It wasn't just because he felt sorry for her. It was because, as she rightly pointed out, she was the only person available in all of Starfleet who'd actually been to the cluster and contacted the entity. It was reasonable to assume that she could thus prove essential to the success of the mission, and indeed she did.

Also, perhaps, because he sensed she deserved an opportunity to prove herself. The people who've busted their humps for years and kept their noses clean don't need any help; they can handle themselves. But someone who has untapped potential and a genuine willingness to start developing it is someone who deserves to be given the opportunity. I've always felt it's backwards the way our schools and other institutions tend to encourage and support those who are already doing well more than those who could improve if given extra encouragement and support.

I read your reponse earlier and have been thinking aobut it all evening trying to put into words a reply. Fundamentally I think I completely disagree with your reasoning. I find and always have found the notion that those who keep their heads down and try their best in an unflashy manner should be passed over for (in my opinion of Chen, a slacker) I mean what then becomes the point of training to be the elite in your field if your not going to get the top gig anyway? And lets not forget that in terms of the story the very survival of the Federation was potentially at stake It shouldn;t have been a question of giving the other 70 more highly qualified and disciplined officer help it should have been a question of getting the best of the best. Obviously in the termsof the story Chen's experience with the Noh Angles WAS a deciding factor but that's a hell of a gamble by Picard.

In more general terms I find the idea that the school system should effectively punish you for trying hard rather unfair. Certainly efforts should be made to draw out potential and help children with special needs but not at the expense of those who simply do the right thing anyway.

[Christopher]

OptimusPete wrote:

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I read your reponse earlier and have been thinking aobut it all evening trying to put into words a reply. Fundamentally I think I completely disagree with your reasoning. I find and always have found the notion that those who keep their heads down and try their best in an unflashy manner should be passed over for (in my opinion of Chen, a slacker) I mean what then becomes the point of training to be the elite in your field if your not going to get the top gig anyway?

First off, Trys isn't a slacker. Maybe she was a bit at the start of the book, but that had very clearly changed by the time Picard interviewed her; she was passionate about bettering herself and making a meaningful difference. Just because she was loose about protocol and prone to informality doesn't mean she wasn't trying.

Second, I think that people in the 24th century have outgrown the idea of elitism and competing to be "the top." Their goal is to fulfill their potential to the best of their ability, and they don't define that in terms of how many other people they can climb over and shove into second-class status. The societal goal is to encourage everyone to fulfill their potential.

Third, you totally misread what I said. I'm simply talking about being fair: giving everyone an equal chance to succeed by their own efforts. Nobody's ever entitled to succeed; it has to be earned. All Picard did was to give Trys the opportunity to prove herself. He brought her along on one mission, in a trial capacity. It was then up to her to demonstrate she had the skill and dedication to be worth keeping around permanently. If she hadn't earned the position through her own efforts, she would've been off the ship and replaced with someone more dedicated as soon as they got back into port. But she did prove herself to be intelligent, dedicated, and able to learn and work to better herself. She has a loose, informal style, but that doesn't reflect on her competence or dedication.

And lets not forget that in terms of the story the very survival of the Federation was potentially at stake It shouldn;t have been a question of giving the other 70 more highly qualified and disciplined officer help it should have been a question of getting the best of the best. Obviously in the termsof the story Chen's experience with the Noh Angles WAS a deciding factor but that's a hell of a gamble by Picard.

You're making the mistake of assuming that discipline and qualification are the same thing. Her qualifications as a scientist and contact specialist were clear. The main marks against her on her record were that she hadn't previously tried hard enough to live up to her great potential. But in her interview, she convinced Picard that she was finally motivated to try hard enough.

Besides, when dealing with first contacts with aliens, you can't make any assumptions about "discipline" being beneficial in any way. An alien species might have a totally different way of thinking and interacting. A rigid personality hidebound by conventions of duty and protocol would be a poor choice for a contact specialist, if you ask me.

In more general terms I find the idea that the school system should effectively punish you for trying hard rather unfair.

That is absolutely not what I said. You're twisting my words. It's not punishing one person if you give other people a fair chance. I'm simply saying that it doesn't make sense to give extra help to the people who are already strong enough to manage on their own while denying it to the people who could benefit from a little assistance.

Besides, I'm saying this as the one who was offered the extra attention as a reward for doing well. It never felt right to me that the teachers kept encouraging me when I was already ahead of the curve, and in the process paying too little attention to other students who were behind the curve and could've benefitted from a teacher engaging with them more, working with them to bring out their potential. Education isn't supposed to be about creating a hierarchy, it's supposed to be about helping every student learn and achieve. And I felt uncomfortable about being doted on by my teachers (mainly English teachers) while plenty of other students who needed a helping hand got neglected.

[wew]

Shelby seemed determined to compete at a pretty high level, I believe her comments to Riker showed that the competition to be on top still exists.

[Dayton3]

[quote=Christopher;1993381]

First off, Trys isn't a slacker.quote]

That is how she was written.

Anyone who deliberately pawns off work on someone else just because it is "boring" kind of fits the definition of a slacker.

Especially if that person is supposed to be a PROFESSIONAL

[William Leisner]

Dayton3 wrote:

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That is how she was written.

Anyone who deliberately pawns off work on someone else just because it is "boring" kind of fits the definition of a slacker.

Especially if that person is supposed to be a PROFESSIONAL

No. If she "pawned off" her bridge shift so she could sit in her quarters and listen to music, then she'd be a slacker. Instead, she asked her superior officer to give her a different assignment more to her interest. Unprofessional? Yeah, but more for the fact that she wheedled like an eight-year-old to get switched. But the slacker label does not fit.

[Baerbel Haddrell]

I would like to add a few more comments:

Christopher said: “I think that people in the 24th century have outgrown the idea of elitism and competing to be “the top”. This is not what I remember from episodes or stories dealing with the Starfleet Academy. Have institutions (or whatever you want to call it) like Red Squad and other elitist groupings been abolished? It doesn`t look that way to me. From what I also could read in “Stone and Anvil” it seems bullying by older students who not only give orders to younger ones but abuse this system is widespread.

Chen in that situation had experiences and insights no other officer had and was therefore valuable for the mission. Picard put her on probation and saw potential because of his personal experiences with officers like Barclay, Worf and Calhoun. He could see that with proper guidance, patience, tolerance and, of course, also work on their part, all of them became excellent officers. These are or were people who were a challenge for Starfleet but whose unique or rare talents made it worth it for Starfleet. I like it a lot that Picard, who is a very experienced captain, is mentoring another young officer with a lot of potential.

Of course, the (I hesitate to use that word) average officer who is working hard but doesn`t stick out should not be disadvantaged. Therefore I found the scene showing Picard in an episode with Q in which Picard never had the opportunities to shine and was kept in a repetitive job disturbing. This showed again that at the very least, competing for the “top” is taking place in Starfleet and if you don`t participate you don`t get the opportunities. Or they are harder to get.

[LightningStorm]

Dayton3 wrote:

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Anyone who deliberately pawns off work on someone else just because it is "boring" kind of fits the definition of a slacker.

"pawning off" menial work to get a bigger assignment is exactly the opposite of a slacker. She considered her original assignment to be boring, so she wanted something MORE, not less. A slacker wants less work not more.

[Christopher]

William Leisner wrote:

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No. If she "pawned off" her bridge shift so she could sit in her quarters and listen to music, then she'd be a slacker. Instead, she asked her superior officer to give her a different assignment more to her interest. Unprofessional? Yeah, but more for the fact that she wheedled like an eight-year-old to get switched. But the slacker label does not fit.

LightningStorm wrote:

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"pawning off" menial work to get a bigger assignment is exactly the opposite of a slacker. She considered her original assignment to be boring, so she wanted something MORE, not less. A slacker wants less work not more.

Both true. She wanted to be on the away team, in the thick of the action, rather than sitting at a console monitoring other people's work. Although it's true that she was doing that out of a desire for activity and excitement rather than a sense of responsibility.

But as I said before, her characterization in the Prologue of the novel does not represent the way she was throughout the entire book. She started out being less than an ideal officer, but her survivor's guilt made her want to change. She feared that her selfishness and tendency to retreat from rough situations had condemned another person in her place, and that motivated her to change. Didn't I make that extremely clear in the text?

Baerbel Haddrell wrote:

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Christopher said: “I think that people in the 24th century have outgrown the idea of elitism and competing to be “the top”. This is not what I remember from episodes or stories dealing with the Starfleet Academy. Have institutions (or whatever you want to call it) like Red Squad and other elitist groupings been abolished? It doesn`t look that way to me.

Red Squad was not a standard group within the Academy, but more of an aberration. While it's true that there will always be people who fall short of their culture's ideals, I think that the institutions of the 24th-century Federation aspire to be fair and give everyone a chance to fulfill their potential, rather than being consciously designed to create an unjust hierarchical system in which a few people's advancement comes at the expense of the majority. If there are people who miss the point and try to advance on the backs of others, that's a breakdown of the system, not an embodiment of how it's supposed to work.

Besides, what we're specifically talking about here is Jean-Luc Picard and why he gave T'Ryssa Chen a chance. And Picard has made it very clear in the past that he believes the purpose of our existence is to better ourselves, to strive toward our full potential. He saw that Trys was willing to try to do that, and all he did was give her an opportunity to do so.

After all, it's that fire and determination that make a great officer, not what's written in the record. Someone who's "kept their head down" and met all the formal requirements and never made waves might look impressive on paper, but would probably just be an average, uninspired follower. Alternatively, someone who's always been a golden child and breezed through all obstacles might feel a sense of entitlement, of expectation to succeed, and might not have that extra strength and imagination needed when the ship encounters an unprecedented situation and that officer is thrown totally outside their comfort zone. So you can't assume that the best person for the job is the one with the best on-paper qualifications.

Chen in that situation had experiences and insights no other officer had and was therefore valuable for the mission. Picard put her on probation and saw potential because of his personal experiences with officers like Barclay, Worf and Calhoun. He could see that with proper guidance, patience, tolerance and, of course, also work on their part, all of them became excellent officers. These are or were people who were a challenge for Starfleet but whose unique or rare talents made it worth it for Starfleet. I like it a lot that Picard, who is a very experienced captain, is mentoring another young officer with a lot of potential.

Yes, that's a good point. I was just about to make it with other of Picard's past crew choices. Data was someone that most people in Starfleet dismissed as a piece of hardware and tried to shove aside so they didn't have to think about him (according to The Buried Age, anyway). But Picard recognized his wish to grow and better himself, and he encouraged Data to pursue opportunities to do that. Wesley was an arrogant brat that nobody took seriously, but Picard recognized his engineering genius and chose to nurture it by giving him a bridge posting, no doubt a position that many older, more experienced officers were thus passed over for. Ro Laren was a convicted mutineer, but with a little nudge from Guinan, Picard came to appreciate the passion and sense of principle that drove her, and so he gave her a post in his crew so that he could guide her in a more constructive direction. Picard is as much a teacher as an officer, and he has a canonical history of taking problem cases under his wing to help them fulfill their untapped potential.

Of course, the (I hesitate to use that word) average officer who is working hard but doesn`t stick out should not be disadvantaged. Therefore I found the scene showing Picard in an episode with Q in which Picard never had the opportunities to shine and was kept in a repetitive job disturbing.

Picard had the same opportunities in that reality as he had in the main one. He just didn't take those opportunities because he'd been too cautious, because in that timeline he lost the youthful fire and arrogance that led him to seize the opportunities that came to him.

That's the key. Equal opportunity doesn't guarantee equal success. An opportunity is just an open door; you have to choose to step through it, and you have to live up to what's expected of you once you do step through. But everyone should be given the chance to step through that door.

[Dayton3]

I think there should've been less of T'Ryssa in the book. Less of Picard and Beverly's baby planning. And more time with Picard doing what he is supposed to do best.

That is in the command chair leading.

In the final analysis, all the time spent on T'Ryssa strikes me as an attempt by a writer to create their own Trek character and make them important to the story.

And yes, I think the term for her "slacker" still applies.

Unprofessional certainly does.

[Christopher]

Dayton3 wrote:

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I think there should've been less of T'Ryssa in the book. Less of Picard and Beverly's baby planning. And more time with Picard doing what he is supposed to do best.

That is in the command chair leading.

Into a war, if you had your way. But I don't write the kind of book you want to read.

In the final analysis, all the time spent on T'Ryssa strikes me as an attempt by a writer to create their own Trek character and make them important to the story.

Uhh... yeah, that's what I was hired to do. In most of the post-finale series, and obviously in the book-only series, the authors have created their own Trek characters, and naturally they had to make them important to the stories, or what would be the point? I created Trys and Rennan Konya. Keith created Miranda Kadohata. Dave created Dina Elfiki, and he and I jointly created Jasminder Choudhury. And all of them have been made important to various stories, just as the author-created characters in the DS9 and VGR post-finale series, and those in the original-to-books series, have been made important to various stories. That's what they're there for -- to have stories told about them.

So basically, you're accusing me of doing my job.