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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 24 2008, 02:42 AM   #46
DonIago
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Let's see-

1. We've never seen the Borg _try_ to assimilate any of the Dominion species, so there's no evidence that they can't. In one of the DS9 novels the Borg fail to assimilate a Founder, but that's the only example to date that I'm aware of.

2. Since when do Dominion ships jam sensors? Please cite an episode or preferably a few episodes to support this claim.

3. We all know there's more to a ship than size...even if there was a Dominion ship bigger than a Borg ship that wouldn't mean anything in terms of power. The Krenim timeship was arguably the most powerful ship in all of Trek...if it fired at the Borg homeworld all of the Borg problems would be solved in one swift stroke.

4. Dominion phased polaron beams overwhelmed the Odyssey, but later shield designs were shown to withstand them.

5. Please cite examples proving that the Dominion can build ships faster than the Borg. In First Contact a Borg cube launches a sphere that, for all we know, didn't exist until 5 minutes prior to launch.

6. I would argue that Hawk's assimilation in First Contact occurred significantly faster than the Jem'hadar maturing in "The Abandoned."

7. Shelby speculated that a Borg cube would remain functional even if, what, 70%+ of it was destroyed? I doubt 10 attack fighters, even ramming a Borg cube, could inflict that much damage. And even if they could it's likely Borg shields could adapt to prevent the Jem'hadar from succeeding in ramming them.

Honestly, I'm not sure where you're getting the information for a lot of your allegations.
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Old August 24 2008, 04:10 AM   #47
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

DonIago wrote: View Post
5. Please cite examples proving that the Dominion can build ships faster than the Borg. In First Contact a Borg cube launches a sphere that, for all we know, didn't exist until 5 minutes prior to launch.
Your post was perfectly fine until #5. I didn't read any further.
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Old August 24 2008, 04:12 AM   #48
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

1. We've never seen the Borg _try_ to assimilate any of the Dominion species, so there's no evidence that they can't. In one of the DS9 novels the Borg fail to assimilate a Founder, but that's the only example to date that I'm aware of.

Changelings have no blood. Vorta are immune to poison and foreign objects... Jem'Hadar the same. That was stated on screen.

2. Since when do Dominion ships jam sensors? Please cite an episode or preferably a few episodes to support this claim.

All fleet battles --> "Sir, the Dominion are jamming our sensors.. Comm system is jammed... countermeasures Mr. Nog... trying Captain Waters" See: Sacrifice of Angels, Valiant, Call to Arms

3. We all know there's more to a ship than size...even if there was a Dominion ship bigger than a Borg ship that wouldn't mean anything in terms of power. The Krenim timeship was arguably the most powerful ship in all of Trek...if it fired at the Borg homeworld all of the Borg problems would be solved in one swift stroke.

That is true, I'll give you that one. Hell, Species 8472 ships were uber powerful and they were not much bigger than Voyager.

4. Dominion phased polaron beams overwhelmed the Odyssey, but later shield designs were shown to withstand them.

Yeah, because the Federation captured the Jem'Hadar ship. The Borg have no information for them to adapt...

5. Please cite examples proving that the Dominion can build ships faster than the Borg. In First Contact a Borg cube launches a sphere that, for all we know, didn't exist until 5 minutes prior to launch.

Borg vessels are enormous. Yes, this is an assumption... but the Jem'Hadar build vessels faster than all the Alpha Quadrant species and Borg vessels are dozens of times larger.

6. I would argue that Hawk's assimilation in First Contact occurred significantly faster than the Jem'hadar maturing in "The Abandoned."

We're going head to head here. In an exclusive battle between the two, Borg babies in their maturation chambers don't grow as fast as Jem'Hadar clones, which go from infancy to maturity in 3 days. One, from "Drone" became mature in about a day and was described as growing 25 times faster than normal (as stated in Memory Alpha).

7. Shelby speculated that a Borg cube would remain functional even if, what, 70%+ of it was destroyed? I doubt 10 attack fighters, even ramming a Borg cube, could inflict that much damage. And even if they could it's likely Borg shields could adapt to prevent the Jem'hadar from succeeding in ramming them.

That is speculation. And since when do shields protect large ship-like objects from ramming the hull? They did it the entire Dominion war against Federation and Klingon capital ships.

Honestly, I'm not sure where you're getting the information for a lot of your allegations.

I'm favoring the Dominion for those reasons.
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Old August 24 2008, 05:02 AM   #49
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

1. Vorta are immune to poison is not the same thing as been immune to nanoprobes and I can't remember anything been said similar for the Jem'Hadar. They don't eat or drink so the chances to poison them in limited to tainting their supply of white as Damar suggested if they couldn't get the wormhole open and supplies became a significant issue. So that means you can "poison" the Jem'Hadar.

2. Just because you can jam the Federation's sensors means little to the Borg. The Borg are more advanced then the Federation.

4. There is nothing stopping the Borg from just capturing a Jem'Hadar vessel and getting the technology information that way. They have a powerful tractor beam that easily caught the Saratoga and the Defiant, which are bigger then a Jem'Hadar attack fighter. Or capturing the technology from the Federation, Klingons or Romulans. The Borg could learn a lot of the necessary info from external sources.

6. Assimilation is fair faster then growing clones. Picard turned into Locutus in a matter of hours, Hawk went bad in a matter of minutes. All the Borg need to do is stop off at any inhabited world and they can instantly reinforce their number of drones.

7. In the Dominion War for the most part it didn't even seem like anyone was using shields. We saw multiple instances of ships taking one or two hits and blowing up straight away.

One point not mentioned is that the Borg have transwarp, which is a big advantage. If the Borg fought the Dominion in a similar way that they have the Federation, the Dominion will most likely win. But if they threw their weight behind a full scale assault their larger, faster and more powerful ships would win the day. They could outrun Dominion fleets, strike at Dominion industry, weaken it that way. Mess with the supply of white and the Dominion would be in significant trouble. Lack of white = rubbish Jem'Hadar. The Dominion would help destroy itself with Jem'Hadar going nuts and killing each other.

Last edited by Jono; August 24 2008 at 05:09 AM.
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Old August 24 2008, 03:41 PM   #50
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

rofeta wrote: View Post
Cyke101 wrote: View Post
It's almost as if people are assuming, "Omg, if the Borg can't assimilate this cowboy, then their durability is tissue paper and their weapons are spitballs!" If Starfleet engineers can come up with ways to combat the Dominion, the Borg certainly can.
Well, the Borg couldn't come up with a way to beat 8472. They had to get help from Starfleet otherwise it looked like 8472 was going to finish off the Borg, so that puts a big doubt on the Borg's ability to adapt without assimilation.
But let's face something about Species 8472: had they gone up against ANY major race in the Trekverse, 8472 would probably come out on top simply because of the amount of firepower they were packing. A grazing shot, like I said before, was enough to send Voyager spinning, one of the most advanced Starfleet ships out there. Species 8472 didn't need assimilation to send Voyager running.

A what if scenario: if Species 8472 invaded the Alpha Quadrant instead of the Delta Quadrant, everyone would probably be screwed. For one thing, no Borg technology to fuse with Starfleet technology to save the day. It's just an issue of firepower and numbers, that's it. I'd say that includes the AQ Dominion force as well.

If you removed the Borg's ability to assimilate and adapt, I'm pretty sure they could still scoop out whole cities from a planet. On the same token, force can override Borg adaptability as well, ie a crashing ship or massive flying debris. Sheer force =/= assimilation, which works both for and against the Borg.

rofeta wrote: View Post
7. In the Dominion War for the most part it didn't even seem like anyone was using shields. We saw multiple instances of ships taking one or two hits and blowing up straight away.
Skin-tight shields like the Defiant's are a possibility, for both sides of the war. We've seen that bubble shield configurations don't work for the Federation in regards to Dominion firepower, and yet when the Defiant's in battle during the war itself, even with the appearance of "non-shields," there are still shield readings in the dialogue. Indeed, in Nemesis, the Enterprise appears to have skin-tight shields as well (just with more graphics and blue splash). Important to note that shields aren't the end-all defense, either. Hull breaches have been shown despite shields being up in some occasions.

Last edited by Cyke101; August 24 2008 at 03:54 PM.
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Old August 24 2008, 03:56 PM   #51
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Where is this idea that borg technology needs a "blood stream" to assimilate coming from? Yes nano probes are present in the bloodstream, but it does not follow that it's required for the asssilmation process to occur. sophisticated nanoprobes could work with whatever material was presented - we've seen then adjust and change the structure of material such as the walls of the enterprise.

As I mentioned before, the founders were affected with a virus so must have cells that could be targeted.
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Old August 24 2008, 06:30 PM   #52
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

[quote=Cyke101;1983119]
rofeta wrote: View Post
Skin-tight shields like the Defiant's are a possibility, for both sides of the war. We've seen that bubble shield configurations don't work for the Federation in regards to Dominion firepower, and yet when the Defiant's in battle during the war itself, even with the appearance of "non-shields," there are still shield readings in the dialogue. Indeed, in Nemesis, the Enterprise appears to have skin-tight shields as well (just with more graphics and blue splash). Important to note that shields aren't the end-all defense, either. Hull breaches have been shown despite shields being up in some occasions.
We saw "bubble shields" used by the Defiant against the Jem'Hadar at the start of Favor the Bold.

I was really just pointing out that unless the ship was a "hero" vessel they tend to only take one or two shots and then they are gone. Didn't mean to suggest that no one used shields because we didn't see a glowing bubble around a ship every time it was hit by weapons fire.

Look at Tears of the Prophets, the weapon platforms immediately does massive hull damage to a Warbird and a Galaxy class but the Defiant gets hit several times and gets through without so much as a dent in its hull.
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Old August 25 2008, 01:25 AM   #53
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Nanoprobes can also assimilate a 24th Century holographic emitter and a Federation starship's diagnostics station without needing a bloodstream.
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Old August 25 2008, 02:20 AM   #54
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

The debate that won't end. This topic come up every three weeks or so it seems.

Look the Borg are on paper superior but the Dominion is so vast and powerful it would give the Borg a very tough fight. On paper the Borg should win although if the Borg can't stop Voyager maybe I shouldn't be so quick to make that prediction.

That being said I care less about who is more powerful and more invested in which group is more interesting. After Best of Both Worlds Part II the Borg were so badly mishandled and waterdowned that they became a boring species (too powerful for inept writers to handle properly in the later years), a shadow of themselves. The Dominion, with its caste system, its political manipulation and its need for order, became the more well developed and better handled of the two. The Dominion also came a lot closer to conquering the AQ then the Borg ever did. I would rather write stories about the Dominion any day. After "Q Who" and "The Best of Both Worlds" (particulary part one), the Borg started to slide as antagonists. And, yeah, I'm including the overrate film "First Contact" with its ridiculous plotholes and absurd actions by all the characters involved. And the introduction of the Borg Queen? Unnecessary.
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Old August 25 2008, 02:37 AM   #55
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

The biggest plothole being, if they had time travel technology, then why not go back in time FIRST and THEN travel to the Alpha Quadrant?

They didn't even have to go back very far, just to any time before "Q Who?" was set.
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Old August 25 2008, 02:51 AM   #56
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Acetylhexene wrote: View Post
The biggest plothole being, if they had time travel technology, then why not go back in time FIRST and THEN travel to the Alpha Quadrant?

They didn't even have to go back very far, just to any time before "Q Who?" was set.

Thank you!

Back in the era known as the 90s on the ol' AOL Trek boards I mentioned this point and several others from the film that simply made no sense. Its too flawed a movie and too uneven for it to be considered a great flick.
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Old August 25 2008, 10:21 PM   #57
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

NKemp3 wrote: View Post
The debate that won't end. This topic come up every three weeks or so it seems.

Look the Borg are on paper superior but the Dominion is so vast and powerful it would give the Borg a very tough fight. On paper the Borg should win although if the Borg can't stop Voyager maybe I shouldn't be so quick to make that prediction.
There is 0 indication the Dominion is larger and more powerful than the Federation.
Sure it's ahead of the Feds in some departments, but technologically and how much space they occupy ... they seem to be rather same.

Also the Dominion war was poorly handled in my opinion on-screen.
Unrealistic for Star Trek itself and incredibly dumb-ed down.

So I will repeat it again, if SF had huge problems with the Borg and has to send a fleet to take care of 1 ship, the Dominion would fare the same.
Plus, the Borg can easily stop ramming through extremely powerful (shield draining) tractor beams, and taking into consideration just how massive a single cube is (not to mention the density of it's armor and adaptation capabilities) ... the Dominion would have a tough time just like the Feds did.
Also, numerous Borg ships could activate energy shields around their vessels.
The phased polaron beams would have little effect since the Borg would learn how to adapt (just as the Feds did ... and the Defiant's shields ... which were part of anti-borg systems were capable of stopping Dominions weapons from penetrating them before the crew brought a damaged Jem'Hadar bug to SF for analisys).
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Old August 25 2008, 10:45 PM   #58
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

rofeta wrote: View Post
Didn't mean to suggest that no one used shields because we didn't see a glowing bubble around a ship every time it was hit by weapons fire.
My mistake, then.
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Old August 26 2008, 10:15 AM   #59
Deks
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

But the issue is that ships in DS9 large battles behaved in such a fashion as if shields were non-existent and that their hulls were on 10% of structural integrity at all times.

It was artistic license I'll grant you that ... but ended up incredibly dumb-ed down for the sake of 'cool' factor and drama.
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Old August 26 2008, 12:05 PM   #60
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

People...let's not forget some of the major reasons the Dominion lost the war. First off, we're talking like the Federation was fighting them alone. Before long they had the Klingons fighting by their side, then they coaxed the Romulans into joining in, and then even the Cardassians turned on their Dominion masters and started doing some MAJOR damage.
Have we ever seen the Borg try to invade Klingon space? Romulan space? Oh, I'm sure they'd fare about the same as the Federation, but the point is that the Federation didn't face them alone. Hell, even the Prophets played a part, making a whole Dominion fleet completely vanish!
Finally, if you'll recall, the Dominion force they were fighting wasn't really the core of the Dominion, it was just those members of the Dominion who were cut off from the Gamma Quadrant due to Rom's self-replicating mines, or the wormhole just plain not opening, or Starfleet's presence at the mouth of the wormhole, or whatever. Half the time it was only a small piece of the Dominion!
The Dominion consists of a whole planet covered in Founders, and a whole empire of not only Vorta and Jem'Hadar, but dozens of other races that we hardly ever got to see! And at least one Vorta, as I recall, had some kind of telekinetic blast powers that she used in season 2...

Now on to other specifics...

The Jem'Hadar are great fighters. We've seen this. We know this. They've got some flair to their fighting, in much the same way someone like Worf might have. The Borg clamber clumsily forward and swing their heavy tech-arms at you, miss pretty easily, and then try again. The only really unique "combat" maneuver I can recall is when a drone pulled someone off a ladder in First Contact and then started climbing it himself. Not to mention, Jem'Hadar can turn invisible. And if the Borg don't see a threat, they don't attack. Also...have the drones ever, EVER shot at anyone??

Furthermore...I noticed someone up above said that Vorta and Jem'Hadar are immune to poison AND foreign objects. Someone else countered the part about poison, but I saw no argument for why their immunity to foreign objects is invalid. If you're going to counter...pay attention!

That's all I've got for now...let's see where this takes us.
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