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Old August 24 2008, 11:35 AM   #1
The Borg Queen
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Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

I was thinking about two different things:

1) From what we can see of our Galaxy, there isn't enough "visible" matter to account for the Galaxy having enough gravity to not tear itself apart.

2) If aliens are out there somewhere, why haven't we seen them?

Well... what about Dyson Spheres?

Suppose an advanced civilisation (or more than one) made itself a Dyson Sphere among some stars at the edge of the Galaxy, where the gravity isn't as intense as being near the core... so that the Sphere was more structurally stable.

That would account for both the undetected matter holding the Galaxy together and be an explanation for why we've not detected any evidence of aliens, because it's all nicely self-contained in a Dyson Sphere.
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Old August 24 2008, 01:50 PM   #2
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

1. That's an awful lot of Dyson's spheres, all over the universe, distributed very evenly, and

2. Wouldn't they radiate in the infrared? We'd be able to see them at some wavelength.
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Old August 24 2008, 02:37 PM   #3
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

Not if the aliens had developed/discovered some material that absorbed all EM radiation except for the standard background 3°K, and used that in the construction of their Spheres for maximum stellar-energy-gathering efficiency.

They don't need to be distributed that evenly, just all around the outside of every galaxy, where there are stars that aren't too close together, and where they Spheres themselves wont be too close together, either.
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Old August 24 2008, 03:26 PM   #4
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

Acetylhexene wrote: View Post
Well... what about Dyson Spheres?
I'm pretty confident that there's not a single Dyson Sphere anywhere in the universe.

Never mind stability or radiation issues, do you have any idea how much material would be required to build a Dyson Sphere around our sun of 1 AU radius and one mile thick?

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Old August 24 2008, 03:51 PM   #5
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

scotthm wrote: View Post
Acetylhexene wrote: View Post
Well... what about Dyson Spheres?
I'm pretty confident that there's not a single Dyson Sphere anywhere in the universe.

Never mind stability or radiation issues, do you have any idea how much material would be required to build a Dyson Sphere around our sun of 1 AU radius and one mile thick?

---------------
I believe Freeman Dyson said there is enough material in our own solar system to build one.

but Dyson Spheres, or any other product of an artifact-building intellegence, are a scientific explanation of Dark Matter for reason already mentioned in this thread. only some natural, or fundamental aspect of the universe can reasonable explain it.

that said, the idea of some hyper-advanced alien civilization who has been building Dyson Spheres all over the universe sounds like an interesting work of fiction
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Old August 24 2008, 04:19 PM   #6
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

scotthm wrote: View Post
Acetylhexene wrote: View Post
Well... what about Dyson Spheres?
I'm pretty confident that there's not a single Dyson Sphere anywhere in the universe.

Never mind stability or radiation issues, do you have any idea how much material would be required to build a Dyson Sphere around our sun of 1 AU radius and one mile thick?

---------------
That doesn't really matter when a sufficiently advanced civilization is in question.
You can't keep looking at problems from human perspective.
If you did that, you might as well attribute human qualities to alien races ... which is quite possibly not applicable because they are ... alien.

Furthermore ... it's also possible that no Dyson spheres would ever be constructed by other alien races which are far more advanced than us.
Why?
Not technological limitations, but maybe they haven't thought of doing it.
Or they might have considered the idea but dismissed it because they didn't deem it usable in any conceivable manner.

There are multiple other possibilities to consider.
They aren't human, so we can't assume that what we envision and is (presently) beyond our capabilities will be done by a far more advanced alien race that didn't evolve in a same fashion like we.
Their priorities are quite possibly vastly different in comparison to ours, same goes for ideas, understanding and everything else.

So stop applying human notions to something that by definition is NOT human.
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Old August 24 2008, 05:10 PM   #7
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

Acetylhexene wrote: View Post
Suppose an advanced civilisation (or more than one) made itself a Dyson Sphere among some stars at the edge of the Galaxy, where the gravity isn't as intense as being near the core... so that the Sphere was more structurally stable.
You'd need to add a theory as to why star formation at the edge of galaxies is more common seeing as dark matter seems to be more common than normal matter.

Besides, dark matter seems to be important in the actual formation of galaxies (and galaxy clusters) as far as I know.

But astrophysics not exactly my specialty ...
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Old August 24 2008, 08:24 PM   #8
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

Deks wrote: View Post
scotthm wrote: View Post
Never mind stability or radiation issues, do you have any idea how much material would be required to build a Dyson Sphere around our sun of 1 AU radius and one mile thick?
That doesn't really matter when a sufficiently advanced civilization is in question.
There may never be civilizations "sufficiently advanced" to do certain things, so as far as we both know it does matter.

You can't keep looking at problems from human perspective.
I'm afraid that you and I have no choice, since that's what we are.

If you did that, you might as well attribute human qualities to alien races ... which is quite possibly not applicable because they are ... alien.
There must be some things that intelligences capable of creating advanced technology have in common, one of which is the ability to think logically. It should not surprise us to find that diverse groups thinking about a problem logically may sometimes come up with similar solutions or ideas.

So stop applying human notions to something that by definition is NOT human.
If you want to believe that there are civilizations out there willing to destroy entire solar systems in trial-and-error attempts to perfect the Dyson Sphere then feel free. I don't think there are, and I'll continue to feel free to believe so, despite your objections.

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Old August 24 2008, 10:50 PM   #9
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

scotthm wrote: View Post
There may never be civilizations "sufficiently advanced" to do certain things, so as far as we both know it does matter.
It's a possibility that there may never be civilizations sufficiently advanced to do certain things ... but since we can only speculate on the matter, we can never be 100% certain as absolute evidence doesn't exist.

I'm afraid that you and I have no choice, since that's what we are.
So you are essentially saying it's impossible for a human to 'think outside certain parameters'.
I beg to differ since numerous technological discoveries would never been made if the people behind those discoveries never thought about the world or things/their approach from a vastly different perspective.
If you cannot try and set aside what has been 'droned' into you from the day you were born, please don't generalize and say that everyone are alike since it's hardly the case.

There must be some things that intelligences capable of creating advanced technology have in common, one of which is the ability to think logically. It should not surprise us to find that diverse groups thinking about a problem logically may sometimes come up with similar solutions or ideas.
In your opinion perhaps and for some alien races such a scenario may possibly apply, but you cannot generalize and say that EVERY intelligent race would have something in common.

If you want to believe that there are civilizations out there willing to destroy entire solar systems in trial-and-error attempts to perfect the Dyson Sphere then feel free. I don't think there are, and I'll continue to feel free to believe so, despite your objections.
I don't ascribe to notions of 'belief' in any context, therefore I cannot do what you propose.
If you think that there might not be civilizations out there that are willing to destroy entire solar systems in trial and error attempts to do ANYTHING ... well it's a possibility ... but not a likely one.
Not every human being subscribes to same notions of 'morality' and 'values' like a lot of humans do.
Who is to say that there isn't a race out there which really doesn't care about anything else besides themselves and wouldn't consider to stop their experiments merely because 1 or 100 solar systems could end up destroyed?
Besides ... as I stated before, why would an alien race create a Dyson sphere for example if they have far more efficient energy sources?
Is there any universal constant which states that virtually any intelligent and logical race will conjure up similar ideas?
It's possible ... yet unlikely.
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Old August 24 2008, 10:52 PM   #10
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

Maybe they only convert lifeless systems into dyson spheres????
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Old August 25 2008, 02:21 AM   #11
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

Deks wrote: View Post
So you are essentially saying it's impossible for a human to 'think outside certain parameters'.
Yes, of course. I'm not saying what those boundaries are, but we're not infinite beings, so of course there are limitations to what we can imagine and how we can think.

I beg to differ since numerous technological discoveries would never been made if the people behind those discoveries never thought about the world or things/their approach from a vastly different perspective.
But they still thought like human beings. And I know there are savants who percieve the world very differently from most of us and yet for all that they are still limited by their humanity in the ways they can think and imagine.

you cannot generalize and say that EVERY intelligent race would have something in common.
Of course I can. They are all intelligent, i.e. they can all think logically.

why would an alien race create a Dyson sphere for example if they have far more efficient energy sources?
I don't think they would. I think anyone who thought about it seriously would dismiss it as being ridiculously impractical.

Is there any universal constant which states that virtually any intelligent and logical race will conjure up similar ideas?
I believe there is. Do you think that the wheels on other worlds are not round?

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Old August 25 2008, 05:07 AM   #12
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

Well if an alien race could plumb the depths of Zero point energy and tap the fabric of space time for energy then Dyson spheres become way too impractical.

Why not make a whole bunch of planet sized ships the size of mars or even earth powered by ZPM, have them be able to generate enough energy to create matter as energy and matter are interchangeable, E=mc^2. If I were them I would take my fleet of planet sized ships out to intergalactic space, ie. the big voids out there between galaxies. Then I would make more ships and make Hydrogen. eventually these "cosmic Hydrogen factories" could generate enough gas to give rise to new galaxies and stars.

What if the universe is like this. You have a metric crap-ton of invisible planet sized ships moving apart from each other and expanding space time while expelling hydrogen at the same time. And the expansion of the universe is due to these "star factory ships" moving apart from one another and not due to a "Big Bang". When they make a could of Hydrogen big enough for a galaxy to form they move into the next void created by their expansion and begin again. It would be freeky as hell if the universe turned out to be like that!

What other feats could a advanced alien civ perform?

They could jump into a basement universe with physicals laws that are same but with gravity that is significantly weaker or even non-existent. Because in a universe like that you could create objects the size of galaxies and you would never never have to worry about them gravitationally collapsing on themselves. Imagine a computer the size of a galaxy, in a universe where Gravity = 0 or 1x10^-10000000000000G, and the speed of light is 3.8x10^100000000000m/s. What could you simulate in that universe? Well, practically ANYTHING!!!! Add a few more spatial dimensions and you have enough space and power to simulate the entire lifetime of out universe from big bang to photon death in a few of our pico-seconds!!!!!

Could make for a cool Sci-Fi story.
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Old August 25 2008, 05:35 AM   #13
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

Acetylhexene wrote: View Post
I was thinking about two different things:

1) From what we can see of our Galaxy, there isn't enough "visible" matter to account for the Galaxy having enough gravity to not tear itself apart.

2) If aliens are out there somewhere, why haven't we seen them?

Well... what about Dyson Spheres?

Suppose an advanced civilisation (or more than one) made itself a Dyson Sphere among some stars at the edge of the Galaxy, where the gravity isn't as intense as being near the core... so that the Sphere was more structurally stable.

That would account for both the undetected matter holding the Galaxy together and be an explanation for why we've not detected any evidence of aliens, because it's all nicely self-contained in a Dyson Sphere.

How do you know we haven't seen em? There are hours of film of craft doing things impossible for our current aviation technology level to do.
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Old August 25 2008, 07:52 AM   #14
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

voggmo wrote: View Post
How do you know we haven't seen em? There are hours of film of craft doing things impossible for our current aviation technology level to do.
From reputable sources?
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Old August 25 2008, 07:54 AM   #15
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Re: Wacky idea about aliens & "dark matter".

Acetylhexene wrote: View Post
Not if the aliens had developed/discovered some material that absorbed all EM radiation except for the standard background 3°K, and used that in the construction of their Spheres for maximum stellar-energy-gathering efficiency.
Well, yeah, but they still have to dump their waste heat somewhere. Otherwise heat would just build up inside the sphere until the whole thing melted. There ain't no stealth in space.
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