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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 23 2008, 07:02 AM   #31
DonIago
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

^As Geordi's little virus idea in "I Borg" was never actually tested, there's no way to know whether it would have been completely effectively, partially effective, or in fact completely useless.
Assuming that it would work...well, you know what they say about assumptions...
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Old August 23 2008, 07:44 AM   #32
The Borg Queen
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

DonIago wrote: View Post
^As Geordi's little virus idea in "I Borg" was never actually tested, there's no way to know whether it would have been completely effectively, partially effective, or in fact completely useless.
Assuming that it would work...well, you know what they say about assumptions...
Borg #1: "What's this?"
Borg #2: "It's a shape."
Borg #1: "But it's a paradox, that shape can't exist in nature."
Borg #2: "You're right... Deleted as irrelevant."
Borg #1: "Cool. Wanna go assimilate some stuff?"
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Old August 23 2008, 08:43 AM   #33
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Assimilation works by injecting nanoprobes into the bloodstream. Founder's do not have bloodstreams and are thus immune to assimilation. And Species 8472 has shown us that the Borg have an insurmountable achilles heel when it comes to being unable to assimilate their foes.
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Old August 23 2008, 11:21 AM   #34
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

TighsEye wrote: View Post
A small fleet of borg is easily defeated by the dominion
Possible, but unlikely.
The Feds were essentially on the same technological level as the Dominion by mid to end of the War.
And the Feds had to send a fleet to destroy a single cube.
You are overestimating the Dominion and it's capabilities.

RobertScorpio wrote: View Post
Borg are over-rated..if they have 'millions of ships' then why havent they taken over the galaxy yet? Because they are overated...DOMINION scientist are equal to federation and they would, as stated above, beat the Borg with some kind of virus..if a second rate engineer like Geordi and Wesley could take down the Borg, why not the Dominion?

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They haven't taken over the galaxy because that way they would lose a valuable source of new technologies (meaning races that are sufficiently developed to resist them to a degree ... like the Federation).
Keep a sufficiently large pool of races in the galaxy for new and diverse technological discoveries ready for assimilation.

As for the virus in question ... it was never tested.
While it is possible the Dominion could definitely resort to extermination of the Borg with various viruses and numerous technologies like the Feds ... the Borg also have hundreds of safety measures to protect themselves from such scenarios ... which is why we never see them taken down.
Oh yes, they took a blow in 'Endgame', but while Voyager knocked out all of the Borg's TW hubs in the galaxy via chain reaction, problem is, the Borg can still travel through TW velocities independently.
They received a large blow ... but hardly one that would exterminate them.
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Old August 23 2008, 01:22 PM   #35
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Dominion would win.

The Founders are too smart.

They could probably genetically engineer Borg-resistant Jem Hadar.
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Old August 23 2008, 03:10 PM   #36
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Biological assimilation isn't the only way the Borg defeat races or adapt to technology. The Borg hadn't assimilated anyone before they adapted to Worf's phasers or the ship's torpedoes in Q Who, for example. And their weapons still pack quite a punch, no matter who you are. You can still get in one or two shots before they adapt as well, no assimilation required to create a defense there.

And before anyone brings up Species 8472, I'd like to point out that they would thoroughly rip apart the Dominion. A single, grazing shot from a mere fighter was able to knock Voyager silly, which is far beyond any sort of firepower we've seen the Dominion unleash, even with phased polaron weapons. Also, we've never seen the Dominion actually blow up a planet as well.

One more point: I'd really like to see Starfleet go up against 15 Cubes. I don't think the results are going to be purdy. See Starfleet go down in flames and we'll get a good idea about how other races will fare.
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Old August 23 2008, 03:34 PM   #37
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
Biological assimilation isn't the only way the Borg defeat races or adapt to technology. The Borg hadn't assimilated anyone before they adapted to Worf's phasers or the ship's torpedoes in Q Who, for example. And their weapons still pack quite a punch, no matter who you are. You can still get in one or two shots before they adapt as well, no assimilation required to create a defense there.

And before anyone brings up Species 8472, I'd like to point out that they would thoroughly rip apart the Dominion. A single, grazing shot from a mere fighter was able to knock Voyager silly, which is far beyond any sort of firepower we've seen the Dominion unleash, even with phased polaron weapons. Also, we've never seen the Dominion actually blow up a planet as well.

One more point: I'd really like to see Starfleet go up against 15 Cubes. I don't think the results are going to be purdy. See Starfleet go down in flames and we'll get a good idea about how other races will fare.
Actually the Borg had already assimilated Federation technology before Q, Who. You had Seven of Nine's family and ship get taken over and then the attacks in the neutral zone at the beginning of TNG which were attributed to the Borg.

The Dominion haven't been shown to be able to blow up a planet, but they tried to blow up a star.
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Old August 23 2008, 04:34 PM   #38
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Really, I think it's safe to assume that any of the major powers could blow up a planet _if they wanted to_. The only questions are how many ships they'd need and how long it would take.
Also, there's the distinction between blowing up a planet and simply neutralizing anyone living on it. Even the Maquis had the ability to kill off an entire world.
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Old August 23 2008, 04:35 PM   #39
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

rofeta wrote: View Post
Cyke101 wrote: View Post
Biological assimilation isn't the only way the Borg defeat races or adapt to technology. The Borg hadn't assimilated anyone before they adapted to Worf's phasers or the ship's torpedoes in Q Who, for example. And their weapons still pack quite a punch, no matter who you are. You can still get in one or two shots before they adapt as well, no assimilation required to create a defense there.

And before anyone brings up Species 8472, I'd like to point out that they would thoroughly rip apart the Dominion. A single, grazing shot from a mere fighter was able to knock Voyager silly, which is far beyond any sort of firepower we've seen the Dominion unleash, even with phased polaron weapons. Also, we've never seen the Dominion actually blow up a planet as well.

One more point: I'd really like to see Starfleet go up against 15 Cubes. I don't think the results are going to be purdy. See Starfleet go down in flames and we'll get a good idea about how other races will fare.
Actually the Borg had already assimilated Federation technology before Q, Who. You had Seven of Nine's family and ship get taken over and then the attacks in the neutral zone at the beginning of TNG which were attributed to the Borg.
And you can still get a shot or two in before they adapt, regardless of updating or changing your technology. We've seen the Borg take on the Klingons via flashback and we know they've fought the Romulans, and I doubt they fared much better (colonies getting scooped up, for one thing), despite perhaps not having a prior experience like Starfleet had with the Raven.

It just seems odd to me the notion that the Borg are solely reliant upon assimilation as offense or defense. Take that away, and you've still got a massive vessel capable of faster-than-warp speeds and humongous fire power, powerful enough to get through an entire fleet of Federation vessels, vessels that can bypass a Borg Cube's adaptive defenses. Even without assimilation, you've still got a ship whose energy weapons pack much more firepower than a ship-mounted phaser.

It's almost as if people are assuming, "Omg, if the Borg can't assimilate this cowboy, then their durability is tissue paper and their weapons are spitballs!" If Starfleet engineers can come up with ways to combat the Dominion, the Borg certainly can.

The Dominion haven't been shown to be able to blow up a planet, but they tried to blow up a star.
Something that the Federation and other powers can do, through a technobabble explanation and a trilithium bomb rather than brute force like 8472.

Last edited by Cyke101; August 23 2008 at 04:43 PM.
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Old August 23 2008, 06:55 PM   #40
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
It's almost as if people are assuming, "Omg, if the Borg can't assimilate this cowboy, then their durability is tissue paper and their weapons are spitballs!" If Starfleet engineers can come up with ways to combat the Dominion, the Borg certainly can. .
I think the assumption that because a combined Federation, Romulan, Klingon and (eventually) Cardassian alliance defeated the Dominion means the Borg would wipe the floor with them is equally flawed.

Nevermind that the Dominion were cut off from their homebase because of friggen Gods.
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Old August 23 2008, 07:08 PM   #41
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

AdmiralGarak wrote: View Post
Assimilation works by injecting nanoprobes into the bloodstream.

Nanoprobes work on the whole body, otherwise how does borg technology "develop" in an infected individual?

The founders were infected by a virus so must have some form of cell structure that can be taken advantage of.
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Old August 23 2008, 07:45 PM   #42
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

Cyke101 wrote: View Post
It's almost as if people are assuming, "Omg, if the Borg can't assimilate this cowboy, then their durability is tissue paper and their weapons are spitballs!" If Starfleet engineers can come up with ways to combat the Dominion, the Borg certainly can.
Well, the Borg couldn't come up with a way to beat 8472. They had to get help from Starfleet otherwise it looked like 8472 was going to finish off the Borg, so that puts a big doubt on the Borg's ability to adapt without assimilation.
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Old August 23 2008, 10:31 PM   #43
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

the Borg's ability to adapt at such an incredible pace to both technology and battle methods is an incredible advantage.

Also, their ships are much bigger and more advanced.

The Borg should win hands down, but the Borg have been written well below their actual abilities since they were first introduced. It's an example of introducing an adversary that's too powerful, so they get taken down more and more over subsequent appearances.
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Old August 24 2008, 01:44 AM   #44
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

sonak wrote: View Post
the Borg's ability to adapt at such an incredible pace to both technology and battle methods is an incredible advantage.

Also, their ships are much bigger and more advanced.

The Borg should win hands down, but the Borg have been written well below their actual abilities since they were first introduced. It's an example of introducing an adversary that's too powerful, so they get taken down more and more over subsequent appearances.
Not "an" example. THE example. They're the epitome of the problem with introducing an adversary that's too powerful.

Imagine what Star Trek would have been like if the Q were written as an aggressive enemy!
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Old August 24 2008, 02:35 AM   #45
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Re: Borg or Dominion??

the Borg's ability to adapt at such an incredible pace to both technology and battle methods is an incredible advantage.

Also, their ships are much bigger and more advanced.

The Borg should win hands down, but the Borg have been written well below their actual abilities since they were first introduced. It's an example of introducing an adversary that's too powerful, so they get taken down more and more over subsequent appearances.
Actually, the borg adapt through 2 methods, sensors and assimilation. The Dominion's 3 species are immune to assimilation and their ships jam sensors constantly.

In terms of size, the speculated Dominion "Planetary Defender" (its existence is unspecified) is 4500 meters in length and a Borg Cube is 3000 meteors in length.

Advanced isn't true, as Dominion phased polaron beams penetrated the shields of all the Alpha Quadrant powers, where as Federation shields held against Borg weapons.

Not only that, but Dominion build ships faster than the Borg, and breed clones faster than the borg can in maturation chambers or assimilate. Then you have to think of the sheer numbers of vessels... Sure a Borg Cube is powerful, but why not just ram it with 10 Attack fighters.... not so tough now huh?
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