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Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

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Old August 13 2008, 06:28 PM   #1126
Anthony Sabre
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Damn I miss Ivanova. I'm 5 episodes into the final season and it just doesn't seem right without her. Lochley is a poor replacement. Guess I'll see her the way I see Ezri on DS9. I imagine it's not easy to get comfortable with a character with only one season of screen time though.
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Old August 13 2008, 06:31 PM   #1127
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Doesn't help that season 5 is a bit weak in general, at least in the first third.
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Old August 13 2008, 09:45 PM   #1128
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

I liked Lochley from the start. It probably helped that I wasn't all that crazy about Ivanova in the first place and, given the circumstances of Claudia's departure, I was inclined to like her replacement.

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Old August 13 2008, 10:49 PM   #1129
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

The thing about Ivanova was that it literally took her four years to grow on me. Claudia Christian was painful to watch in most of season one, and she really didn't begin to seem comfortable in the role until season two. It's really not until her scenes in "Rising Star" (and, later, "Sleeping in Light") that she worked for me as a character (her painful left hand of vengeance monologue a few episodes previous didn't help bring me around)--and those were her last two episodes!

Lochley, on the other hand, is a mixed bag. She's intentionally left out of most of the first quarter of season five, and it hurts her development. Her scenes with Garibaldi seem forced throughout, and she doesn't have any chemistry with Boxleitner (and maybe that's the point, but they still aren't very good in their scenes together). On the other hand, once Gary Cole is introduced over on Crusade, the character (and the actress) suddenly come alive for me. I wish we could have had more episodes of that spin-off, if only to further Lochley's development.
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Old August 14 2008, 12:25 AM   #1130
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

I never had a problem with Lochley's scenes with Sheridan though I admit that it was easier to see their unease with each other after finding out their backstory. I really disagree about her scenes with Garibaldi, though. With one exception, I loved the back-and-forth between them. The Gideon/Lochley thing I still wasn't sure about when the plug was pulled.

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Old August 14 2008, 11:21 AM   #1131
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Ivanova was never one of my favourite characters on the show, but she got better as the series went along.

Lochley, never a great fan of either. Definitely preferred Ivanova I think.

The final season in general, is very poor during the Telepath crisis thread. After that, the ISA/Centauri stuff is good, and the final 5/6 episodes are as good as anything that B5 aired.

Should also point out that Day of the Dead was superb as well.
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Old August 14 2008, 11:43 AM   #1132
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Lochley's main problem was indeed that a new character nedded to be established in 14 or so episodes. So to me the establishing of ties to other characters seems rather forced,



or especially Lochley and Garibaldi which i find really disappointing. I like their conflict early the season but the fact that

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Old August 14 2008, 12:16 PM   #1133
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

^^ Re: Franklin/Garibaldi/Lochley, absolutely spot on.
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Old August 15 2008, 07:39 PM   #1134
Anthony Sabre
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

For some reason they love to throw Garibaldi into deep, dark pits of despair and then devote a half dozen episodes to him crawling out. That's the main reason I think they chose Lochley to help Garibaldi instead of Franklin, along with a chance to further develop her character. If left to Franklin he'd have picked up on Micheal falling off the wagon a lot faster then Lochley.
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Old August 15 2008, 08:22 PM   #1135
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Anthony Sabre wrote: View Post
For some reason they love to throw Garibaldi into deep, dark pits of despair and then devote a half dozen episodes to him crawling out. That's the main reason I think they chose Lochley to help Garibaldi instead of Franklin, along with a chance to further develop her character. If left to Franklin he'd have picked up on Micheal falling off the wagon a lot faster then Lochley.
I much prefer they manner in which Garabaldi's drinking was handled in season five as opposed to season one. It was a slow build up throughout season five instead of a cheesy one off.
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Old August 15 2008, 08:34 PM   #1136
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

middyseafort wrote: View Post
Anthony Sabre wrote: View Post
For some reason they love to throw Garibaldi into deep, dark pits of despair and then devote a half dozen episodes to him crawling out. That's the main reason I think they chose Lochley to help Garibaldi instead of Franklin, along with a chance to further develop her character. If left to Franklin he'd have picked up on Micheal falling off the wagon a lot faster then Lochley.
I much prefer they manner in which Garabaldi's drinking was handled in season five as opposed to season one. It was a slow build up throughout season five instead of a cheesy one off.
Oh, I agree. Although, from looking at the script book, it appears the original version of Survivors would have handled Garibaldi's alcoholism in a far better way than the final version (although it would still suffer from dealing with the problem in a one off).
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Old August 16 2008, 08:41 PM   #1137
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

^Interesting. I haven't gotten the "Other Voices" books and I might not have a chance to, but "Survivors" remains one of my least favorite season-one episodes and I really liked the first season.
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Old August 16 2008, 10:41 PM   #1138
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

^^
A lot of the other scripts didn't have a lot of changes, but Survivors had slews of them, which are nicely cataloged in Jan's section of cut/extended/changed bits. Marc Scott Zicree's introduction is a bit odd--he goes to great length to laud Joe Michael Straczynski and Babylon 5, but at the same time seems rather at odds with all the changes that were made to the script he turned in, be it the result of rewrites, on set changes, or an editing decision.
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Old August 17 2008, 02:10 AM   #1139
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Hirogen Alpha wrote: View Post
^^
A lot of the other scripts didn't have a lot of changes, but Survivors had slews of them, which are nicely cataloged in Jan's section of cut/extended/changed bits. Marc Scott Zicree's introduction is a bit odd--he goes to great length to laud Joe Michael Straczynski and Babylon 5, but at the same time seems rather at odds with all the changes that were made to the script he turned in, be it the result of rewrites, on set changes, or an editing decision.
From other interviews and the whole Star Trek New Voyages nebula controversy, Marc Scott Zicree comes off as a little bit off-center in regards to himself and his talents as a writer.
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Old August 18 2008, 03:53 AM   #1140
Anthony Sabre
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Re: Niners Unite...around Babylon 5! - The Lost Threads

Well I watched the series closer today. Almost got tearful but not quite. I finished this show far faster then I meant to. I told myself I was only going to watch 1-2 episodes per day but that got thrown out the window. I was completely hooked near the finish of season 2 and by season 3 I was sometimes watching 3-4 episodes per day. Anyway I finished the whole series right at two months.

This was the most epic series I ever watched. So much was at stake. I think the reason I enjoyed it so much is because it was not tied down to ideals and an established universe like Trek is. B5 was free to do as it pleased from a writing aspect and certainly did so. No character was safe and no outcome was implausible. Even after reading the synopsis for each episode of each season, individual episodes still kept me on the edge of my seat, wondering if it would all work out, even though I knew the ending. Unlike the Dominion War, there were times when I was unsure if they would come off victorious against the Shadows. And even after the war ended, there was still so much to see. What You Leave Behind was the most definitive ending in Trek but Sleeping in Light was even more so. The episode addressed on screen what DS9 was only able to address later in the novels. Anyway, it's unlikely I'll find another series quite like this one, though I'm already looking.

I have one episode left to see. I intentionally skipped the season 4 closer since it was a "look back" episode. I'll probably check it out tomorrow and I'll also be ordering The Gathering soon as well.

Last edited by Anthony Sabre; August 18 2008 at 05:53 AM.
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