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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old August 15 2008, 04:43 AM   #16
Deano2099
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

David Mack wrote: View Post
^ Yes, for Tellarites there's a fine line between angry and horny....
Wow. Guess my ex was a closet Trek fan after all...
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Old August 15 2008, 05:04 AM   #17
Technobuilder
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

KRAD wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^^Except that Tev would respect her more if she did the former.
The problem isn't that Tev doesn't respect her -- that's a problem, but not the problem. The real problem is that he tends to forget that he's part of a team, and he also tends to forget that Gomez is his superior officer.


The way I approached his character was that, to his Tellarite way of thinking, politeness was hypocrisy and the civil way for people to relate to one another was by being brutally honest. Gomez made a fatal mistake in terms of their relationship by trying to interact with him on human terms, being civil and polite. If she'd remembered to treat him like a Tellarite, if she'd expressed her anger and disapproval openly from the start, he would've respected her from the start and they would've gotten along much better.
True, but, as you yourself showed in the story, Gomez was a little busy grieving.


Although, as we've seen, getting too angry and confrontational would've just made him think she was in love with him...
Indeed.


If you're talking about the incident with Gomez, I'm still not really sure I see it the way you may be seeing it.
See above -- what he did in Small World was completely in character, but it was also spectacularly irresponsible and was, at the very least, a violation of protocol.

I'd rather not "explain" my view of Tev because a lot of the issues with him come to a head in Security, which I assume you haven't read, what with nobody actually reading eBooks and stuff. Talk to me again in October.

Honestly, one of my biggest regrets with the eBook hiatus was that we had serious plans for Tev's further development. (Sarjenka's also.)
Correct, I haven't read past Small World, but that's nothing to do with the e-book format. I was buying all the trek books I could for a while WAY back when and ended up picking up SCE books 3 & 4 somehow missing 1 & 2 in the process. Continuing forward I soon had Foundations and on and on till the format change in book size and some discussions on here motivated me to finally track down books 1 & 2 online. Once I had them, I started reading the series finally and just finished Creative Couplings about a month ago I guess.

I've been toying with the idea of going ahead and reading the E-Books to avoid waiting for the next release, but I'm a bit afraid if I do that, I'll have no way to justify the cost of the next book when it comes out and then it'll lose priority on my buy list. New Dresden Files Short Stories & Thomas Novella coming out starting in October, then Princep's Fury in Nov. It's gonna be a busy month. (Heaven Forbid if Butcher wrote Star Trek.)

Anyways. I would love for the series to continue on. I've enjoyed it as much as Vanguard & IKS Gorkon, so I hope that we haven't seen the end of the DaVinci and her crew.
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Old August 15 2008, 02:16 PM   #18
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

KRAD wrote: View Post
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^^Except that Tev would respect her more if she did the former.
The problem isn't that Tev doesn't respect her -- that's a problem, but not the problem. The real problem is that he tends to forget that he's part of a team, and he also tends to forget that Gomez is his superior officer.
I'll grant the former, but the latter is in large part because Sonya failed to earn his respect at the beginning. Because she didn't assert herself and express her disapproval of him honestly as a Tellarite would, he perceived her as weak, untrustworthy, and indecisive.

See, as I see it, Tev isn't incapable of respecting others -- it's just that he only respects people who, in his eyes, have earned that respect. But since he's such a perfectionist, not a lot of people can meet his high standards of approval. In his defense, though, he applies the same high standards to his own performance.
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Old August 15 2008, 03:06 PM   #19
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

historypeats wrote: View Post
Peter David does this with his Selelvian character in NF, particularly once the "Knack" is exposed.
You mean when the "Gleau" of his halo slips?

Nobody likes Quentin Stone very much either, in "A Rock and a Hard Place".

In the comics: "William Bearclaw".
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Old August 15 2008, 04:14 PM   #20
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

Christopher wrote: View Post
KRAD wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
^^Except that Tev would respect her more if she did the former.
The problem isn't that Tev doesn't respect her -- that's a problem, but not the problem. The real problem is that he tends to forget that he's part of a team, and he also tends to forget that Gomez is his superior officer.
I'll grant the former, but the latter is in large part because Sonya failed to earn his respect at the beginning. Because she didn't assert herself and express her disapproval of him honestly as a Tellarite would, he perceived her as weak, untrustworthy, and indecisive.
Which doesn't change anything I said. He's still subordinate to her, and he consistently doesn't act it. Respect has nothing to do with it -- chain of command does.

As I said (and as you, Christopher, know, as does anyone who's read the eBook), this all comes to a head in Security, working in how Tev treated Gomez in Aftermath, how Gomez treated Tev (and how Tev responded) in Small World, and what we learned about Tev's background in Ring Around the Sky.
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Old August 15 2008, 09:08 PM   #21
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

phrog wrote: View Post
T'Lana remains the most unlikeable character I've had to deal with in a Trek book. Part of the problem was that she was so unrelentingly one dimensional and contrarian simply for the sake of being so. She really felt to me like an artificial plot device with a giant CONFLICT sign around her neck than a character. And that's just as a reader. Outside of the almost equally annoying and loathsome Leybenzon, she's pretty much disliked by any character of consequence inside the stories too. Leybenzon is only slightly less distasteful because he simply appeared less.

Thankfully, things are taking a more positive turn for the crew of the E in Greater than the Sum which I'm 3/4 of the way through now.
Indeed. I would argue that there's more character development for T'Lana (and that she's portrayed as more of a three-dimensional character overall) in her one short scene in Greater Than The Sum than in all of Before Dishonor. As for Leybenzon, I flat out couldn't stand him in any of his appearances. Didn't find him interesting, didn't find him understandable or relatable, and couldn't wait to see him go.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
Nobody likes Quentin Stone very much either, in "A Rock and a Hard Place".
Well, yeah, the characters didn't seem to like him very much. Me, I thought he was great.

Therin of Andor wrote: View Post
In the comics: "William Bearclaw".
EEK! I forgot about him. Yeah, a total schmuck.
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Old August 15 2008, 10:51 PM   #22
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

ClayinCA wrote: View Post
"William Bearclaw".
EEK! I forgot about him. Yeah, a total schmuck.
You forget that even the schmucky Bearclaw was cracked... by elderly Commander Thimon, an Andorian preparing for his retirement from active service. ["The Trouble with Bearclaw", #29, and "Maggie's World", #31, Star Trek Series I, DC Comics, 1986.]
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Old August 16 2008, 04:18 AM   #23
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

KRAD wrote: View Post
Honestly, one of my biggest regrets with the eBook hiatus was that we had serious plans for Tev's further development. (Sarjenka's also.)
Nobody would mind if we devoted the twelve paperback slots to SCE in lieu of the ebook slots, would they?
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Old August 16 2008, 05:23 AM   #24
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

I don't know about all 12, but I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up to it getting back on the schedule sooner rather than later no matter what format it's in.

I'm just hoping that regardless of what format it's released in, SCE or COE or whatever will be back on the drawing board and have a release window before the last Collection is published. Not a fan of down time.
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Old August 16 2008, 05:35 AM   #25
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

^ I'm not a fan of downtime, either, but I can say that we wouldn't even start thinking about it until we're much closer to the end of the eBook reprints than we are now...
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Old August 16 2008, 03:24 PM   #26
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

KRAD wrote: View Post
^ I'm not a fan of downtime, either, but I can say that we wouldn't even start thinking about it until we're much closer to the end of the eBook reprints than we are now...
Maybe if you started gearing up for another CoE trade now, it'd be ready for the next slot in 2010 once the last of the current crop has been released?

Besides, I've ordered my Sony Reader now that it's available in the UK and my first eBook purchases will be the CoE!
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Old August 16 2008, 05:17 PM   #27
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

The next slot in 2010 is already tentatively claimed by What's Past, to be followed by at least two more CoE compilations. (Not to mention the highly anticipated Slings and Arrows omnibus.) KRAD wouldn't have to start worrying about getting new CoE material together until mid-2011 or so... and he wouldn't worry about it until Pocket said, "Here's a big fat check; now how about some more CoE material?"
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Old August 16 2008, 05:59 PM   #28
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

William Leisner wrote: View Post
The next slot in 2010 is already tentatively claimed by What's Past, to be followed by at least two more CoE compilations. (Not to mention the highly anticipated Slings and Arrows omnibus.) KRAD wouldn't have to start worrying about getting new CoE material together until mid-2011 or so... and he wouldn't worry about it until Pocket said, "Here's a big fat check; now how about some more CoE material?"
Well, when I get my Sony Reader at the end of September I'll be buying up the entire SCE/CoE series to go on there.
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Old August 17 2008, 12:51 AM   #29
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

William Leisner wrote: View Post
The next slot in 2010 is already tentatively claimed by What's Past, to be followed by at least two more CoE compilations. (Not to mention the highly anticipated Slings and Arrows omnibus.) KRAD wouldn't have to start worrying about getting new CoE material together until mid-2011 or so... and he wouldn't worry about it until Pocket said, "Here's a big fat check; now how about some more CoE material?"

Again, as long as they're back in business before the last collection comes out, I'll be happy.

I wonder if maybe some of the problems with Ebook releases led to problems with Ebook purchases. Maybe Pockets distro methods need some revision. Again, nothing against E-books, but when I've looked for them, it's never been as easy as I expected it to be.

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems like all of the out of print books should be available as E-books now and sold within some straightfoward iTunes like venue.
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Old August 17 2008, 01:30 AM   #30
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Re: Have Star Trek Writers Ever Tried to Create an Unlikable Character

Going back to the original topic, Keith created the character of Councilor Molmaan, who was unlikeable for pretty obvious reasons...
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