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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old August 15 2008, 11:14 PM   #16
Philo
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

This is turning into a haiku
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Old August 15 2008, 11:22 PM   #17
Lindley
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

number6 wrote: View Post
Because the Sombrero thing is fun and the NOT.DEAD. is fandom being in denial about something that happened that they didn't like so they pretend it "didn't happen."
Well, it happened in a holodeck program reconstructing events from two centuries in the future. The novel line has already shown how those events really played out, and it's a bit different. Not to mention more intriguing.
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Old August 15 2008, 11:23 PM   #18
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

Lindley wrote: View Post
number6 wrote: View Post
Because the Sombrero thing is fun and the NOT.DEAD. is fandom being in denial about something that happened that they didn't like so they pretend it "didn't happen."
Well, it happened in a holodeck program reconstructing events from two centuries in the future. The novel line has already shown how those events really played out . . .
In the novels, anyway (which are at least as likely to be contradicted as not).
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Old August 15 2008, 11:27 PM   #19
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

Lindley wrote: View Post
number6 wrote: View Post
Because the Sombrero thing is fun and the NOT.DEAD. is fandom being in denial about something that happened that they didn't like so they pretend it "didn't happen."
Well, it happened in a holodeck program reconstructing events from two centuries in the future. The novel line has already shown how those events really played out, and it's a bit different. Not to mention more intriguing.
I don't read the novels.. Sombreros are fun and canon.

Not. Dead. is kinda silly. Braga killed him off in TATV. It happened.
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Old August 15 2008, 11:51 PM   #20
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

number6 wrote: View Post
Not. Dead. is kinda silly. Braga killed him off in TATV. It happened.
I'm just saying, what happened was that a holodeck program showed him dying. Surely you can see why some people would be hesitant to accept this as firsthand evidence of reality. Maybe the events played out a bit differently and Section 31 altered the records.
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Old August 16 2008, 12:09 AM   #21
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

Lindley wrote: View Post
number6 wrote: View Post
Not. Dead. is kinda silly. Braga killed him off in TATV. It happened.
I'm just saying, what happened was that a holodeck program showed him dying. Surely you can see why some people would be hesitant to accept this as firsthand evidence of reality. Maybe the events played out a bit differently and Section 31 altered the records.
I suppose that's possible.

OTOH the writer of that episode says that Trip died and that Archer then starts to think about whether his sacrifice was "worth it" when talking about his time of exploration in StarFleet. IMO, that episode fails primarily by not emphasizing that enough in the scenes that follow.

I do suppose that you could use your "Holodeck/Section 31" scenario to justify the lack of rank promotions for the crew over 10 years to those who take issue.
It wasn't a great episode, but it doesn't mean that Trip isn't dead.
People want to "pretend" that it "never happened" simply because they hated the episode. But there it is. On TV, on DVD, on Video, on Download. The episode got made and for whatever intentional reasons on behalf of the writers and producers of the episode, Trip dies. That's the end of it. The novels aren't part of their story. The novels are part of someone else's version of this story.
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Old August 16 2008, 12:15 AM   #22
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

shrug
there are enough contradictions with pegasus alone to make one wonder about tatv.
much less ferengi on board during a classified mission.
the thing is a mess in so many ways.
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Old August 16 2008, 01:35 AM   #23
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

number6 wrote: View Post
The episode got made and for whatever intentional reasons on behalf of the writers and producers of the episode, Trip dies. That's the end of it. The novels aren't part of their story. The novels are part of someone else's version of this story.
Their story sucks. Not just with Trip's death, I really don't care about that very much. Just all around, it was a really bad episode.

The novels tell an alternate story which fits perfectly with what was seen on-screen, but is far more compelling. Therefore, despite its non-canon status, I choose the better interpretation.

If this had been done with the finale of another show, I might agree with you: Go with the original creator's intent. But Enterprise was stumbling from one misstep to another through most of its run, and the ending was just the crowning example. I have far more respect for the good people at Pocket Books, who have someone managed to pull a worthwhile tale out of that mess, than for the people who caused the mess in the first place.
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Old August 16 2008, 01:40 AM   #24
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

^^ And you're welcome to feel that way.

Your opinion doesn't change anything. The episode was written, Trip is dead and that's the end of Star Trek as produced by the people who own the brand. The novels aren't part of that story.
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Old August 16 2008, 07:00 AM   #25
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

number6 wrote: View Post
Trip is dead
Trip is a fictional character. As such, his status depends entirely on your perspective. If you haven't seen the entire show, he's "alive". If you've seen the last episode, you assume he's "dead". If you've also read The Good That Men Do, you know he's "alive" despite his apparent death.

You're perfectly welcome to keep your perspective confined to the TV series, but insisting yours is the only valid one is silly.

Sorry for being so persistent about this. It's just that written Trek has been superior to aired Trek for quite a few years now (at least on average), and it's annoying to see it dismissed out of hand. I'm not talking about canonicity issues---I'll leave that for the similar Star Wars debate---but just the value of the stories themselves. You can't tell me Elias Vaughn is a worthless character just because he's never shown up on-screen, or that the Founders haven't mysteriously disappeared, or that the "Conspiracy" parasites aren't distant cousins of the Trill, or that Andorians don't have four genders, just because none of that was on-screen. It's real if you enjoy the stories, and that's good enough.
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Last edited by Lindley; August 16 2008 at 07:12 AM.
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Old August 16 2008, 09:37 AM   #26
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

Frankly, I find the entire argument tired and the worst part about the whole Not.Dead phenomenon. Each side has merit based on what they wish to believe is 'real'. Being hard nosed about it is silly but I find the entire premise of the argument silly.
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Old August 16 2008, 01:20 PM   #27
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

Lindley wrote: View Post
number6 wrote: View Post
Trip is dead
Trip is a fictional character. As such, his status depends entirely on your perspective. If you haven't seen the entire show, he's "alive". If you've seen the last episode, you assume he's "dead". If you've also read The Good That Men Do, you know he's "alive" despite his apparent death.

You're perfectly welcome to keep your perspective confined to the TV series, but insisting yours is the only valid one is silly.

Sorry for being so persistent about this. It's just that written Trek has been superior to aired Trek for quite a few years now (at least on average), and it's annoying to see it dismissed out of hand. I'm not talking about canonicity issues---I'll leave that for the similar Star Wars debate---but just the value of the stories themselves. You can't tell me Elias Vaughn is a worthless character just because he's never shown up on-screen, or that the Founders haven't mysteriously disappeared, or that the "Conspiracy" parasites aren't distant cousins of the Trill, or that Andorians don't have four genders, just because none of that was on-screen. It's real if you enjoy the stories, and that's good enough.
I don't understand why you need to be persistent about it.
If you enjoy the novels, good for you. The writers of the series obviously have a different approach and since it is what aired, that is what the writers had in mind for the story they wanted to tell. Insisting otherwise because you didn't like it is pretty silly. Star Wars doesn't enter into it. I haven't read those novels either. Lucas told his story and it's on the screen. If fans want to argue otherwise it's their choice but it doesn't change the story the producers and writers wanted to tell onscreen.
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Old August 16 2008, 03:05 PM   #28
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

Denial is the first stage of grief. How long before the Trip fans move on to the second stage?
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Old August 16 2008, 10:48 PM   #29
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

Sector 7 wrote: View Post
Denial is the first stage of grief. How long before the Trip fans move on to the second stage?
Second Stage: Novels
Third Stage: Fan Fiction
Fourth Stage: Slash
Fifth Stage: Blog
Sixth Stage: Myspace
Seventh Stage: Acceptance
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Old August 17 2008, 04:29 PM   #30
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Re: .NOT . SOMBRERO

number6 wrote: View Post
^^ And you're welcome to feel that way.

Your opinion doesn't change anything. The episode was written, Trip is dead and that's the end of Star Trek as produced by the people who own the brand. The novels aren't part of that story.
They are now.

There is no more aired Enterprise. There probably never will be. The story continues *only* in the novels. And since the novels are not likely to contradict themselves, then they become the only story that matters now.

This goes for any Trek series, of course, not just ENT. (TOS would appear to be the exception, since the new film takes place during that series' timeframe.)
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