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Old August 15 2008, 08:33 PM   #106
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

We had Batman Begins and The Dark Knight...so since we had his origins story, why don't just call the 3rd film and last for Nolan...

Batman.
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Old August 15 2008, 08:37 PM   #107
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

I think they'll call it "The Batman" if they go in that direction, to differentiate it (slightly) from the 1989 film "Batman" and the 1966 film "Batman: The Movie."
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Old August 15 2008, 10:24 PM   #108
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

I would prefer The Batman over everything else that has been thrown about as of late (Shadow of the Bat, Gotham City, The Caped Crusader...).
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Old August 15 2008, 10:25 PM   #109
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

Mr Freeze will be back.

"ICE to meet you!"
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Old August 15 2008, 11:02 PM   #110
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

yeah that Riddler one has been floating around (probably fanart)


still, I think Riddler actually would make sense THEMATICALLY, more so than Catwoman:

Batman Begins - Bruce Wayne becomes Batman, having to overcome fear in the process -thus, they use Scarecrow (with a mix of Rha's Al Ghul)

The Dark Knight - "Escalation" - just like The Long Halloween, we see how the "old school" style mobsters start to get superceded by supervillains like The Joker; arguably, because Batman has attracted such a drastic response from the criminals (I don't think Batman "attracted" such crazy super-villains to appear in Gotham....I think what happened is that he made the ground fertile for them; he made the old-style mobsters so desperate that a "new kind of criminal" they felt was needed to rise to meet the challenge of Batman.

So in TDK, Joker represents pure unadulterated Chaos, to Batman's dream of Order. Joker's whole speech to Harvey where he explains that he just "does" things and HATES "Plans" and "Order" of any kind, not just of the police but even the relative "order" that the mobsters used to have under their criminal empire at the start of "Begins": he truly is a sociopath.

But (as opposed to like, Catwoman) Riddler is the opposite end of the spectrum: He *has* "plans".....oh so many "plans" that he actually has to MAKE UP needlessly convoluted plans to flaunt how intelligent he is. Riddler believes in games, believes in games with "rules" in a way the Joker philosophically cannot.

So in TDK, we've got a villain who wants to tear down Batman's dream of Order in Gotham because he wants Chaos.

For Batman 3, I think it would make sense to turn that around and have someone, The Riddler, who wants and believes in "Order" to a terrible extreme.....

....in a way, just as Gordon presaged the appearance of The Joker at the end of Batman Begins, I think The Joker predicted the rise of The Riddler in TDK:

when he says:

Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know … I just do things. The mob has plans. The cops have plans. Gordon's got plans. You know … they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are....You know – you know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan"…even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I told the press that, like, a gang-banger will get shot, or a truck load of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all part of the plan. But when I say that one little old mayor will die…well, then everyone loses their minds!
So I think it should be The Riddler because.....he's the complete opposite of The Joker; he's "a man with a Plan"

and this Batman 3 movie could be a real, real commentary on how scary it is that people are "willing to give up their freedom for their security" (for which they deserve neither...)

the whole point being, that if you think about it, Gotham has essentially put Batman in a position where he's a super-legal law enforcer; he's like a dictator in ancient Rome. Batman's rule is that he won't kill: this is what separates him from the chaotic villains like the Joker. But what separates Batman from basically being a tyrant? It's a very thin and blurry line: similar to how Lucius Fox was upset that Batman would use the sonar-tracking system, but in the end, Batman destroyed it because he only wanted to use it for the extreme danger that the Joker presented. But another man, i.e. the Riddler, might not have done that.

****So after the chaos that the Joker brought to the city, it would be disturbing but true that most of the people in Gotham would want someone to "restore Order" a "man with a Plan".....and even if the Plan is HORRIFYING, that people would still accept it, because its "Order".

So the way I see it, The Joker primed Gotham to be in a position where they'd ACCEPT the Riddler (knocking over mob bosses, establishing his own rule over the city possibly through high-tech surveillance that Batman is unwilling to use) if it means restoring Order, "even if the plan is horrifying"

so thematically, I think Riddler would actually make a lot of sense
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Old August 16 2008, 12:41 AM   #111
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

^Or insert Hugo Strange in his place.
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Old August 16 2008, 01:11 AM   #112
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

V wrote: View Post
yeah that Riddler one has been floating around (probably fanart)


still, I think Riddler actually would make sense THEMATICALLY, more so than Catwoman:

Batman Begins - Bruce Wayne becomes Batman, having to overcome fear in the process -thus, they use Scarecrow (with a mix of Rha's Al Ghul)

The Dark Knight - "Escalation" - just like The Long Halloween, we see how the "old school" style mobsters start to get superceded by supervillains like The Joker; arguably, because Batman has attracted such a drastic response from the criminals (I don't think Batman "attracted" such crazy super-villains to appear in Gotham....I think what happened is that he made the ground fertile for them; he made the old-style mobsters so desperate that a "new kind of criminal" they felt was needed to rise to meet the challenge of Batman.

So in TDK, Joker represents pure unadulterated Chaos, to Batman's dream of Order. Joker's whole speech to Harvey where he explains that he just "does" things and HATES "Plans" and "Order" of any kind, not just of the police but even the relative "order" that the mobsters used to have under their criminal empire at the start of "Begins": he truly is a sociopath.

But (as opposed to like, Catwoman) Riddler is the opposite end of the spectrum: He *has* "plans".....oh so many "plans" that he actually has to MAKE UP needlessly convoluted plans to flaunt how intelligent he is. Riddler believes in games, believes in games with "rules" in a way the Joker philosophically cannot.

So in TDK, we've got a villain who wants to tear down Batman's dream of Order in Gotham because he wants Chaos.

For Batman 3, I think it would make sense to turn that around and have someone, The Riddler, who wants and believes in "Order" to a terrible extreme.....

....in a way, just as Gordon presaged the appearance of The Joker at the end of Batman Begins, I think The Joker predicted the rise of The Riddler in TDK:

when he says:

Do I really look like a guy with a plan? You know what I am? I'm a dog chasing cars. I wouldn't know what to do with one if I caught it. You know … I just do things. The mob has plans. The cops have plans. Gordon's got plans. You know … they're schemers. Schemers trying to control their little worlds. I'm not a schemer. I try to show the schemers how pathetic their attempts to control things really are....You know – you know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go "according to plan"…even if the plan is horrifying. If tomorrow I told the press that, like, a gang-banger will get shot, or a truck load of soldiers will be blown up, nobody panics, because it's all part of the plan. But when I say that one little old mayor will die…well, then everyone loses their minds!
So I think it should be The Riddler because.....he's the complete opposite of The Joker; he's "a man with a Plan"

and this Batman 3 movie could be a real, real commentary on how scary it is that people are "willing to give up their freedom for their security" (for which they deserve neither...)

the whole point being, that if you think about it, Gotham has essentially put Batman in a position where he's a super-legal law enforcer; he's like a dictator in ancient Rome. Batman's rule is that he won't kill: this is what separates him from the chaotic villains like the Joker. But what separates Batman from basically being a tyrant? It's a very thin and blurry line: similar to how Lucius Fox was upset that Batman would use the sonar-tracking system, but in the end, Batman destroyed it because he only wanted to use it for the extreme danger that the Joker presented. But another man, i.e. the Riddler, might not have done that.

****So after the chaos that the Joker brought to the city, it would be disturbing but true that most of the people in Gotham would want someone to "restore Order" a "man with a Plan".....and even if the Plan is HORRIFYING, that people would still accept it, because its "Order".

So the way I see it, The Joker primed Gotham to be in a position where they'd ACCEPT the Riddler (knocking over mob bosses, establishing his own rule over the city possibly through high-tech surveillance that Batman is unwilling to use) if it means restoring Order, "even if the plan is horrifying"

so thematically, I think Riddler would actually make a lot of sense

Nice analysis, V - however, I have to point out that the villain you've described as the perfect follow up to Joker isn't the Riddler. Riddler is still a criminal, still all about stealing stuff. Why would Gotham be interested in backing someone so blatantly out for their personal gain and offering the city nothing. No, the villain you're describing is a new Mayor, or Governor - someone who promises to bring law and order back to Gotham, which would include running the vigilante out of town. This lets you swing Batman back from possible dictator - and I'd agree that TDK really sinks its teeth into the idea of Bruce Wayne, "one of the wealthiest and most powerful men in the world", establishing his own order in Gotham because he has the power. Remember what he tells the copycats when they ask what's the difference between them and him - he responds with a statement which means, I have the resources to do what I want. You don't.

It's not really a comfortable place to leave a hero. But have someone go the other way, enact a kind of martial law, which the people embrace because it means safety - and you can have Batman go back to the side of championing freedom. What could be more interesting than Batman seeing the streets cleaned up by city government, thinking maybe he can hang up the cowl, only to discover its a police state he's living in. That lets the story explore Bruce's desire for order and the dangers inherent in it, much as BBegins explored his fears and TDK explored "escalation", which was the inevitable reality created by his simplistic idea that he could just change a system as complex as Gotham.
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Old August 16 2008, 01:35 AM   #113
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

1 - the Riddler really could still be a villain and steal stuff, etc. but....yeah, he'd be like a super-mobster; like, The Joker isn't really a mobster....turns out he hates the mob just as much as Batman; he's just a sociopath and hates "Order". The Riddler wants "Order" and "Plans"; he's intelligent and really educated; I don't see him wanting to destroy "civilization"...who would understand his poetry-ladden riddles?

2 - or, you could make it that there's yet another "new D.A." or "new FBI task force leader" or whatever (Gordon is already Commissioner).....or maybe, just the head of their crime lab..............but the point is, he *engineers* "The Riddler" as an alternate persona to get more power. By day, he's mayor/FBI crimes guy here to clamp down on the city and restore order, but by night, he's The Riddler...intentionally starting the chaos that is then used as justification for even further lockdowns. I don't know if that would work though.

But it would be sort of a techno-thriller thing: you know like "Enemy of the State"; the Riddler would be so "smart" that he's hacked the city's new CCTV surveilance system and has taps on all the phones, controls the traffic lights, etc. and he manipulates the city like a giant chessboard. And Batman's got to fight him even though he pretty much controls everything.

Yeah the Riddler's a criminal....but he's not in it for the money: he's in it because he feels slighted by a world that doesn't recognize how smart he is. I'm going by Batman Animated Series, but I liked that whole origin (followed in several spinoffs) that he's a brilliant scientist/programmer whose own company higher-ups fired him after taking him for granted, with a whole "if you're so smart, why aren't you rich?" mentality:

The Riddler doesn't steal because he likes stealing. That would be too simplistic. The Riddler is trying to aggressively prove to the world how smart he really is, and stealing things is just a powerful symbol of that he uses (people notice more when you rob a bank). And in that way he's really narcissistic; that "Psychology of Batman" special said how he's really like Ted Bundy because they both feel compelled to leave clues at crime scenes and taunt the police, and when Bundy was on trial he was gloating about what he did.

So the Joker was Chaos and how the bad "lowlifes" of the mob in Gotham really almost brought everything down.

Well, the "logical progression" is: what is going to be the reaction from the "good citizens of gotham"? the people that "believe in order"?

the way I see it, the Nolan-Riddler would be like, a scientist or computer programmer guy who loses everything because of how rampant the mob in Gotham had become (possibly due to some of Joker's actions in TDK), and he just *snaps*....

....*snaps*, and says "the Joker's whole thing was "plans are useless" and "intelligent civilized people can't accomplish anything, the forces of chaos will bring you down!".........so the Riddler *snaps*, and goes "Oh yeah?!" and basically hacks the entire Gotham telecommunications and surveillance grid, and uses it to utterly destroy the mob more than Batman ever did.......because the Riddler isn't above killing them.

But he's selfish about it, he wants to prove "I did it! and YOU lost!" so he of course, steals things from both the mob and the city to show that "I am in control"......and the Riddles and stuff are things to show how smart he is and taunt the mob and police for not being on his intellectual level.

Sort of like.....remember that episode of the X-Files where a sentient computer kills its creator, who is hiding in a diner, by calling up two rival street gangs? Using satellite and CCTV surveillance it figures out where its creator is, then calls up each of the rival gangs individually and tells each that the other is having a meeting in the diner; both groups barge in shooting and then its creator gets killed in the crossfire.

Things like that; cyber-warfare and stuff to *smash* the mob, but he's also against the police as inherently incompetent, and basically wants to rule as a technocrat. So Batman has to stop him.

But of course he's insulted that 1- as smart as he is, he can't figure out who Batman is, and 2- Batman is, if not AS smart as him, nearly as smart as him. The combined effect leads him to become obsessed with him.
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Old August 16 2008, 02:57 AM   #114
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

V wrote: View Post

2 - or, you could make it that there's yet another "new D.A." or "new FBI task force leader" or whatever (Gordon is already Commissioner).....or maybe, just the head of their crime lab..............but the point is, he *engineers* "The Riddler" as an alternate persona to get more power. By day, he's mayor/FBI crimes guy here to clamp down on the city and restore order, but by night, he's The Riddler...intentionally starting the chaos that is then used as justification for even further lockdowns. I don't know if that would work though.
Now, that's interesting - and would be a great use of one of the Rogues.

But it would be sort of a techno-thriller thing: you know like "Enemy of the State"; the Riddler would be so "smart" that he's hacked the city's new CCTV surveilance system and has taps on all the phones, controls the traffic lights, etc. and he manipulates the city like a giant chessboard. And Batman's got to fight him even though he pretty much controls everything.

Yeah the Riddler's a criminal....but he's not in it for the money: he's in it because he feels slighted by a world that doesn't recognize how smart he is. I'm going by Batman Animated Series, but I liked that whole origin (followed in several spinoffs) that he's a brilliant scientist/programmer whose own company higher-ups fired him after taking him for granted, with a whole "if you're so smart, why aren't you rich?" mentality:

The Riddler doesn't steal because he likes stealing. That would be too simplistic. The Riddler is trying to aggressively prove to the world how smart he really is, and stealing things is just a powerful symbol of that he uses (people notice more when you rob a bank). And in that way he's really narcissistic; that "Psychology of Batman" special said how he's really like Ted Bundy because they both feel compelled to leave clues at crime scenes and taunt the police, and when Bundy was on trial he was gloating about what he did.

So the Joker was Chaos and how the bad "lowlifes" of the mob in Gotham really almost brought everything down.

Well, the "logical progression" is: what is going to be the reaction from the "good citizens of gotham"? the people that "believe in order"?
Exactly, after being traumatized by Joker, and having Harvey Dent held up to them as the Hero That Saved Them, aren't Gothamites going to be pretty eager to elect a law and order leader? You could easily do something with the whole hacker/ controlling everything in the city thingfor the climatic fight - though didn't they use that schtick in Live Free or Die Hard?

the way I see it, the Nolan-Riddler would be like, a scientist or computer programmer guy who loses everything because of how rampant the mob in Gotham had become (possibly due to some of Joker's actions in TDK), and he just *snaps*....

....*snaps*, and says "the Joker's whole thing was "plans are useless" and "intelligent civilized people can't accomplish anything, the forces of chaos will bring you down!".........so the Riddler *snaps*, and goes "Oh yeah?!" and basically hacks the entire Gotham telecommunications and surveillance grid, and uses it to utterly destroy the mob more than Batman ever did.......because the Riddler isn't above killing them.
I seriously hope they continue with their established style - which is no origin for villians. How did Ra's come to be part of the League of Shadows? Who knows? What made Jonathon Crane enjoy experimenting on the insane? Does it matter to the story? Where was Joker before Batman appeared? Who cares? If they use one (or more) of the Rogues, I don't need to know how or why they became a criminal.

But then, I'm weird for a Batman fan. I have next to no attachment to any of the Rogues except in how well they can be used in a story about Bruce Wayne's struggles.
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Old August 16 2008, 04:26 AM   #115
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

I found this online...

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Old August 16 2008, 05:07 AM   #116
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

Gotham Knights sounds more like the Gotham City arena football team.
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Old August 16 2008, 07:29 PM   #117
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

Agent Richard07 wrote: View Post
I found this online...

Love the poster but the name is awful ...I think "The Batman" sounds the best.
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Old August 16 2008, 07:34 PM   #118
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

The rumors may be false and WB may deny them. But what better way to continue to a media frenzy on a studio's own movie than to create and spread the rumors yourself.
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Old August 17 2008, 01:50 AM   #119
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

We never saw any actual funeral for Dent in THE DARK KNIGHT. We see either Batman or Gordon's vision of the near future, the Dent tribute, the smashing of the Batsignal, then it cuts back to Batman running from the crime scene. It's no more set in stone than the end of BATMAN BEGINS was...did DARK KNIGHT open with Batman investigating the Joker hours/days/weeks after his meeting with Gordon? Nope.

But really, they should go with my ideas. Dick Grayson will be a kid hit by a bus. Selina Kyle the name of a murdered prostitute. A bird shop named Cobblepot's and its fat owner will blow up in an explosion. Bane will be a wrestler glimpsed on t.v. for 2 seconds. Mr. Freeze will appear...on the side of an Ice Cream truck.

The villain of the movie will actually be Tuttle King, the new mayor of Gotham...nicknamed by the media KING TUT.

Or have a paroled/escaped Carmine Falcone be the mastermind villain, with somewhat eccentric hitmen after Bats...like THE PUNISHER (2004) where Castle the fought the guitar guy and the Russian.
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Old August 17 2008, 06:54 AM   #120
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Re: BATMAN 3 RUMOR next Villian??

Um...we did see Dent's funeral and the Bat-signal being destroyed. It wasn't a vision. It was called a flash-forward. This was used for dramatic editing reasons.

In any event, using a revamped King Tut would be ballsy, though unlikely.
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