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Old August 12 2008, 08:37 AM   #1
Aragorn
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Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Batmans

Batman and Gotham City have been on the big screen and the small screen in many versions of all shapes and sizes. Each with their own take on the legend, some loved, others hated.

I want you to say something positive and something negative about each one of them (that apply) using constructive criticism. If you hated "Batman & Robin," list a reason why, but also list something good about that movie. If you loved "The Dark Knight," list a reason why, but also list something negative about that movie.


Batman (1943)


Batman and Robin (1949)


"Batman" (1966)


Batman Fights Dracula (1967)


"The Batman/Superman Hour" (1968)


"Super Friends" (1973)


Batman (1989) and Batman Returns (1992)


"Batman: The Animated Series" (1992)


Batman Forever (1995)


Batman & Robin (1997)


"Batman Beyond" (1999)


"Birds of Prey" (2002)


Catwoman (2004)


"The Batman" (2004)


Batman Begins (2005) and The Dark Knight (2008)


Batman: Gotham Knight (2008)
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Old August 12 2008, 08:56 AM   #2
Jim Steele
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman Begins:

Pro: Brilliantly Realised

Con: Selective Microwaves

Dark Knight:

Pro: Heath Ledger's Joker

Con: Christian Bale's Batvoice

Tim Burton's Batman/Batman Returns

Pro: They're very Tim Burton

Con: They're very Tim Burton

Batman Forever

Pro: Um, Jim Carrey was a good Riddler. I guess.

Con: Too heavily based on the 60s television show.
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Old August 12 2008, 02:12 PM   #3
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Begins
Pro: Told a mature Batman story that was actually a decent film in its own right
Con: Batman STILL couldn't turn his head

Dark Knight
Pro: The best superhero film ever made
Con: My favourite villain:Two-Face, gets kind of shafted again

Batman (1989)
Pro: Finally gave the Batman story some of the darkness and gravitas it deserves in live action
Con: Still too campy in too many places: Prince songs, what the hell?

Batman Returns
Pro: Some of the set design is very pretty.
Con: Its not a Batman story, its the worst of Tim Burton's twisted dreams onscreen

Batman Forever
Pro: Val Kilmer put in a certain amount of effort
Con: They destroyed the character of Two-Face, giving him zero pathos and telling us his backstory in a weakass flashback.

Batman and Robin
Pro: I've never watched it all the way through
Con: I've never been able to sit and watch it all the way through

Batman: TAS
Pro: Fantastic animation and design
Con: Imagine what it could have been like with no network execs checking the content

Birds of Prey
Pro: Fun nods to the Batman mythos
Con: The scripts and acting are strictly mediocre
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Old August 12 2008, 03:33 PM   #4
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman - 1966
Pro: Pure goofy fun
Con: Damaged the view of superhero-based media for some time

Batman
Pro: Great production style of having a 1930s look with modern dashes
Con: Joker killing Bruce's parents?

Batman Returns
Pro: Lots of style
Con: I don't know who those characters were, but they were not from the Batman universe

Batman Forever
Pro: A really good Batman story and closest to the source material of the 80s/90s Bat-films.
Con: The Villains were a little over the top and strayed a little far from their source material

Batman and Robin
Pro: Good action sequences and a great score
Con: "Let's kick some ice."

Catwoman
Pro: Halley Berry's costume
Con: Everything else

Batman: The Animated Series
Pro: Very good interpretation of Batman
Con: Producers come off as a little too arrogant at times

Batman Beyond
Pro: Most interesting and unique addition to the Batman mythology in years
Con: It turned out that Terry was Bruce Wayne's son through a needlessly complicated and convoluted plan

Batman Begins
Pro: Nice balance between the villains
Con: Batman running over cops and thinking no one will care

The Dark Knight
Pro: Heath Ledger's performance as Joker.
Con: Lousy narrative structure.

Batman: Gotham Knight
Pro: Neat marketing tie-in
Con: Kinda lame upon a second viewing
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Old August 12 2008, 04:27 PM   #5
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

"Batman" (1966)
Good: Has remained popular and introduced a lot of people to the Dark Knight.
Bad: Made Batman campy and NO DVD RELEASE

"The Batman/Superman Hour" (1968)
Good: Helped create a new generation of Bat-Fans
Bad: Not very memorable.

"Super Friends" (1973)
Good: Prototype Justice League
Bad: Not very memorable

Batman (1989) and Batman Returns (1992)
Good: Started the next generation of fans, helped usher in a new era of Superhero films.
Bad: Batman kills people

"Batman: The Animated Series" (1992)
Good: The definitive Batman
Bad: Didn't run long enough.

Batman Forever (1995)
Good: Expanded the character
Bad: Two-Face doesn't continually flip his coin

Batman & Robin (1997)
Good: Arnold Schwarzenegger returns to his villain roots
Bad: He wasn't very good at it.

"Batman Beyond" (1999)
Good: Excellent followup to B:TAS, Bruce had a son
Bad: Ignored Barbara Gordon's continuity

"Birds of Prey" (2002)
Good: Kept bits of continuity ignored by other Bat series (Jason Todd for example).
Bad: Not enough episodes so most consider it mediocre. Too much meddling by DC Comics (they had decided they wanted to move Batman back to a movie property shortly after the series began). Batman would not leave Gotham City.

Catwoman (2004)
Good: Halle Berry
Bad: Everything else - including Halle Berry

"The Batman" (2004)
Good: Shows Batman early in his career
Bad: Robin, Batgirl joined WAY too early

Batman Begins (2005) and The Dark Knight (2008)
Good: Pretty much everything
Bad: Batman's voice

Batman: Gotham Knight (2008)
Good: Different stories add to the mystique of Batman
Bad: Only worth a rental
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Old August 12 2008, 05:07 PM   #6
S. Gomez
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

I'm only going to comment on what I've actually seen. That seems fair.

Batman (1966)
The Good: Very, very funny. I fell off the couch laughing.
The Bad: Well... some of it was cheesy without being actually funny.

Batman: The Animated Series
The Good: Probably the most mature animated series I've ever seen. Cartoons ain't just for kids!
The Bad: Quite a few of the episodes had some sub-par animation, occasionally on episodes where the writing deserved better.

Batman Beyond
The Good: The basic premise was solid, and turned out to be quite entertaining despite my initial misgivings.
The Bad: It could get a little too teen-angst for my taste.

Batman Begins
The Good: Actually let me get into the Batman mythos, something no other live-action movie before it did.
The Bad: "If that train reaches the tower, the water system right across the city is gonna BLOW!"... a total of three times.

The Dark Knight
The Good: Heath Ledger. Duh.
The Bad: Everyone forgets to mention Aaron Eckhart.

Batman (1989) & Batman Returns
The Good: Tim Burton has an aesthetic interesting enough to make a visually impressive film.
The Bad: It doesn't quite mix properly with Batman, in my opinion.
The Ugly: The Penguin. Ugh.
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Old August 12 2008, 05:41 PM   #7
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman (1989)
Good - Michael Keaton
Bad - Batman using bullets

Batman Returns (1992)
Good - Darker story
Bad - Killer Penguins carrying missles

"Batman: The Animated Series" (1992)
Good - Stories done by Paul Dini
Bad - It was cancelled too soon.


Batman Forever (1995)
Good - Nicole Kidman
Bad - Treating Two face as another Joker


Batman & Robin (1997)
Good - Somewhat interesting premise
Bad - An observatory in the city




Batman Begins (2005)
Good - great story
Bad - Katie Holmes

The Dark Knight (2008)
Good - Heath Ledger, Aaron Eckhert, Morgan Freeman
Bad - Weak ending imo

Batman: Gotham Knight (2008)
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Old August 12 2008, 06:25 PM   #8
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Aragorn wrote: View Post
Batman and Gotham City have been on the big screen and the small screen in many versions of all shapes and sizes. Each with their own take on the legend, some loved, others hated.

I want you to say something positive and something negative about each one of them (that apply) using constructive criticism. If you hated "Batman & Robin," list a reason why, but also list something good about that movie. If you loved "The Dark Knight," list a reason why, but also list something negative about that movie.

Batman (1943) & Batman and Robin (1949)
Never have seen them. I understand they are nearly unwatchable.


"Batman" (1966)
Good: Some of the highest and finest camp ever produced. Introduction of Barbara Gordon to the Bat-mythos.
Bad: Bat-fans who can't take a joke.


Batman Fights Dracula (1967)
Never seen it. How did you dig this up?


"The Batman/Superman Hour" (1968)
Maybe saw it once or twice. Don't remember it.


"Super Friends" (1973)
Good: Superheroes in the 70s! And Casey Kasem as Robin!
Bad: Even as a kid I wondered why the Superfriends wasted time announcing things like "That giant robot is about to step on those people. I'll blow it away with my super-breath!", rather than just, you know, blowing it away with the super-breath. I always wanted to holler at the screen, "We know what you can do, dummy - just do it!"

Batman (1989)
Good: Fantastic stylistics, an interesting take on Bruce Wayne from Keaton.
Bad: Jack Nicholson ACTING the Joker, a fat and useless Jim Gordon, Alfred lets Vicki Vale into the Batcave??


Batman Returns (1992)
Good: Meow! Great chemistry between Keaton and Pfeiffer
Bad: Circus freaks break into the Batmobile by pointing a whirligig at it. 8 minute long sequence of penguins walking this way and that way. A third act that makes no sense whatsoever.


"Batman: The Animated Series" (1992)
Good: Enjoyable storytelling, often some clever dialog, Harley Quinn
Bad: A little light for what I'm looking for in Batman.


Batman Forever (1995)
Good: Excellent action
Bad: Shoehorned in, pointless love interest. Chris O'Donnell. Ultimately just not very memorable.


Batman & Robin (1997)
Good: Bruce and Alfred - it's actually a quite touching little character arc.
Bad: Everything else.


"Batman Beyond" (1999)
Good: Probably the most successful attempt to put someone besides Bruce in the cowl.
Bad: Didn't really hold my attention. The Animated stuff just has too simplistic a characterization of Bruce Wayne.


"Birds of Prey" (2002)
Good: The concept had potential.
Bad: Focus on Helena rather than Barbara. The dialogue. Super-lame Canary Jr. Ashley Scott couldn't act her way out a wet paper bag.


Catwoman (2004)
Good: It's pretty forgettable.
Bad: Story. Dialogue. Villain.


"The Batman" (2004)
Good: They seem to be doing some original things with the mythos.
Bad: Don't really care for the animation style.


Batman Begins (2005)
Good: An onscreen story finally figures out what's interesting about Bruce Wayne - and it's not his gadgets. Innovative take on Ra's rather saves that character from absurdity. Beautiful slick look. Fantastic performances.
Bad: The car chase was pretty painful.


The Dark Knight (2008)
Good: Ballsiest take on a superhero ever to hit the screen. Not afraid to get at the tragic, insane core of the best Batman stories. Amazing performances. Bale nails the core of Bruce Wayne with his three way performance - such an arrogant ass in public, pure brute force as Batman, repressed and intense as private Bruce - a man who is a stranger to himself and everyone else. Ledger is the perfect foil, manic, mercurial and terrifying. A multi-layered story built of echoes and resonances that stick with you for days.
Bad: Is it just me or does Alfred spend the entire movie telling Bruce to suck it up and not be such a baby? Rachel's letter to Bruce is possibly the worst film dialogue since "Road House".


Batman: Gotham Knight (2008)
Haven't seen it. Considering renting it though.
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Last edited by Lapis Exilis; August 12 2008 at 06:52 PM.
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Old August 12 2008, 07:07 PM   #9
Emh
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman (1966)
Good: Good ol' fashioned camp.
Bad: Good ol' fashioned camp.

Batman (1989)
Good: Gothic setting.
Bad: Jack Nicholson playing Jack Nicholson.

Batman Returns
Good: Selina Kyle & Catwoman.
Bad: Penguin.

Batman: The Animated Series
Good: Great characterizations and storylines throughout.
Bad: The horrid redesign in animation in the latter part of its run.

Batman Forever
I tried yesterday watching it and I couldn't get past 15 minutes. I thought people said this was better than Batman & Robin!

Batman & Robin
Good: Uma Thurman.
Bad: Everything else.

Batman Beyond
Good: Fantastic take on the future of Batman's mythos.
Bad: Terry was Bruce's genetically engineered son?

Birds of Prey
I've always wanted to check this out but I haven't had the chance yet.

Catwoman
I pretend that this never existed.

Batman Begins
Good: Excellent origin story.
Bad: The shooting position in the Tumbler.

Gotham Knight
Good: When it's good, it's great.
Bad: When it's bad, it's terrible.

The Dark Knight
Good: Heath Ledger.
Bad: Everyone forgets to mention Gary Oldman.
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Last edited by Emh; August 12 2008 at 07:27 PM. Reason: Forgot Gotham Knight.
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Old August 12 2008, 07:18 PM   #10
PsychoPere
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman (1966)
Pro: The Batmobile
Con: Camp

Batman (1989)
Pro: The Batman treated as a serious, dark character
Con: Jack Nicholson; The Joker's backstory; pretty much everything else

Batman Returns
Pro: Great set design
Con: Everything else

Batman: The Animated Series
Pro: The definitive adaptation
Con: Animation redesign in later seasons

Batman Forever
Pro: Kilmer was decent as the Batman
Con: Everything else

Batman & Robin
Pro: Michael Gough as Alfred Pennyworth
Con: Everything else

Batman Beyond
Pro: Interesting angle on continuing the Batman through a successor
Con: Terry as Bruce's son

Birds of Prey
Pro: Dina Meyer as Barbara Gordon
Con: Everything else

Batman Begins
Pro: Fantastic look at the Batman's origins
Con: Katie Holmes

Batman: Gotham Knight
Pro: Interesting anthology experiment
Con: Would've preferred one overarching story instead

The Dark Knight
Pro: Everything except
Con: The cell phone sonar system
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Old August 12 2008, 07:49 PM   #11
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

40s Batman
Good: Introduced a lot of people to Batman, there's a lot of fun to be found in observing the low-budget filming with clear period influences on storytelling (Batman and Robin vs. the Japs).
Bad: Kind of lame.

Batman (1966)
Good: Hilarious fun
Bad: Some fans can't take a joke, some non-fans can't see the genre as anything other than this.

Batman (1989)
Good: Introduced a more serious tone to the public's perception of the character.
Bad: Weirdly divergent in some important ways, too weird in general.

Batman Returns
Good: Continues the serious take.
Bad: Continues and amps up the weirdness, in some cases (penguins with rocket launchers) descending to outright camp in its own way.

Batman: The Animated Series
Good: Pretty much everything.
Bad: Fans who cultishly insist all future takes on the character must either be continuations or this or else use all the same actors and creators.

Batman Forever
Good: Jim Carrey's Gorshin-esque Riddler
Bad: Beginning of The End

Batman and Robin
Good: Clooney is the only pre-Bale Batman to pull off a decent billionaire playboy; one of the many, many failings of the script is failing to play to this.
Bad: Everything else.

Batman Beyond
Good: Very interesting experiment with memorable future characters and setting.
Bad: Succumbs to the trap of making Bruce's future way too bleak.

Birds of Prey
Good: Dina Meyer
Bad: Stupid, Smallville-style teen angst.

Catwoman
Good: Fantastic parody value.
Bad: Oh, god, the pain of it all.

The Batman
Good: Makes excellent use of Batgirl and Robin (particularly the former).
Bad: Stupid villain redesigns.

Batman Begins
Good: Fantastic, un-campy origin take
Bad: Katie Holmes (though the character's writing was kind of bad too)

The Dark Knight
Good: Most everything
Bad: Their take on Two-Face, while compelling on its own, kind of misses the point of the character (basically just keeping the gimmick).
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Old August 12 2008, 08:29 PM   #12
OdoWanKenobi
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman (1966)
Pro: A lot of light fun.
Con: Has permanently colored public perception of Batman as kiddy

Batman (1989)
Pro: Visuals are great
Con: Story and characters aren't great

Batman Returns
Pro: Visuals are great
Con: Way too dark and neurotic

Batman: The Animated Series
Pro: The absolute definitive version of Batman.
Con: Wasn't a fan of the animation redesign in the later seasons.

Batman Forever
Pro: Jim Carrey was pretty good as The Riddler (even if I prefer the Riddler as an intellectual)
Con: Two-Face was butchered. He acted like The Joker. He flipped his coin multiple times.

Batman and Robin
Pro: George Clooney played Bruce Wayne well
Con: Everything else

Batman Beyond
Pro: A fresh and interesting addition to the Batman mythos
Con: While good, never was able to live up to the quality of B:TAS

Batman Begins
Pro: A well written, acted, directed, etc. reboot of the franchise
Con: Katie Holmes was a bad casting choice

Batman: Gotham Knight
Pro: Conroy back as Batman
Con: Some of the stories are just plain uninteresting.

The Dark Knight
Pro: An exciting and thought provoking story that transcends the genre of comic book movies to take its place amongst the best crime movies ever made.
Con: Bale's Batman voice is a little grating.
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Old August 12 2008, 08:33 PM   #13
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman 66

Good: Batgirl.
Bad: everything else

Batman 89

Good: made the Bat dark again. good Alfred, good Batmobile. liked the Batwing
Bad: Jacker Nicholson, Prince songs, killing the Joker

Batman Returns

Good: Michelle Pffeifer as Catwoman, Walken as Max Schrek
Bad: Mutant Penguin.

Batman Forever

Good: Introducing an older non-camp Robin
Bad: OTT Riddler, TLJ trying to out-Carrey Carrey, Batmobile going up a wall(?!)

Batman and Robin

Good: Batgirl in tight latex
Bad: NIPPLES! NEON! ruined Mr Freeze. eviscerated Bane

Batman Begins

Good: Everything (except: )
Bad: Katie Holmes/Rachel Dawes

The Dark Knight

Good: everything (except: )
Bad Maggie Gyllenhaal/Rachel Dawes
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Old August 12 2008, 09:34 PM   #14
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

I haven't seen all of the versions on the list, so will just do the ones I have.

Batman 1960s series & movie

Pro: Great comic timing from West and Ward

Con: As a result, for years, many people associated Batman in particular and comics in general with this sort of campness and silliness.

Batman 1989

Pro: The Batman mythos finally given a serious and big budget treatment

Con: It feels like Tim Burton's idea of Batman, not a movie adaptation of the comic character

Batman Returns:

Pro: Fantastic visuals, great villains

Con: Batman is essentially a supporting character

Batman Forever

Pro: Batman finally fights and moves like he ought to

Con: Tommy Lee Jones' horrible performance

Batman and Robin:

Pro: Uma Thurman and Michael Gough's performance, bringing vampiness and dignity, respectively, to a movie that lacks most good qualities.

Con: One of the worst scripts ever. Actually, pretty much everything except Thurman and Gough

Batman Begins:

Pro: The most faithful and respectful Batman movie to date

Con: The climactic scenes could have been better handled

The Dark Knight:

Pro: Elevated the superhero movie to the level of great cinema for probably the first time ever.

Con: I didn't like the courtroom scene near the start and some of the dialogue that (an uncredited) Nicky Katt got in the chase scene seemed to belong to a different movie (possibly a Michael Bay one)

Catwoman:

Pro: Halle looked hot in that outfit

Con: Everything else

Batman, TAS:

Pro: Pre-Nolan, the best adaptation of Batman

Con: Not really fair to blame the series, but I get a little tired of people who say that Mark Hamill should play the Joker in a live-action movie or that Kevin Conroy should play Batman in a live-action movie, even though they look nothing like the characters! Voice-over work is different from screen acting!

The Batman animated series:

Pro: A very individual visual look, with distinctive and original takes on the villains

Con: Too sci-fi for my tastes. I would have preferred an animated show that was obviously influenced by the Nolan movies, in the way that the previous animated show was influenced by the Burton ones.
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Old August 13 2008, 05:03 AM   #15
suarezguy
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Re: Constructive criticism: One thing positive, negative about the Bat

Batman 89
Good: Visuals, music
Bad: Nicholson not menacing enough, weak plot

Batman Returns
Good: The sets, all the acting
Bad: "Eat floor, high fiber" and Penguin having the schematics of the Batmobile.

Batman Forever
Good: Jim Carrey's introductory scene was OK, also liked the bank guard and "You're ruining my big party! Are you insane?"
Bad: Two-Face wasted

Batman & Robin
Good: Poison Ivy at the ball, Alfred's scenes and "I hate when people talk during the movies."
Bad: Too-bright colors.

Batman Begins
Good: Ra's, Scarecrow, Falcone
Bad: The car chase, the real world look.

The Dark Knight
Good: Aaron Eckhart as Harvey Dent.
Bad: Wayne was sidelined, too-real world, themes were mostly underwhelming and familiar.
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