Buffy or Angel?

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amdmiami wrote:

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Why does everyone keep saying that the characters on Buffy were underdeveloped? Buffy had some of the best characters including Buffy herself.

Buffy did have great characters that I enjoyed for many years. However, the core of who each character really was never changed, or at least not anything as drastic as Wes or Cordy.

(Buffy)She went from bitchy L.A. girl, to love struck girl, to confused girl, to depressed girl, to lonely girl and beyond.

Yes, Buffy had bad days like everyone but she didn't fundamentally change. She was still who she was at the core even after she came back from the dead. That's really the closest you could say that she changed was when she was despondent after coming back from the dead. However, by the end of the Season she was back to being who she always was, though granted, a bit more mature and serious.

Willow developed also sooo much over the series. When we met her in season 1, she was a small insecure nerdy girl who was wuite bland. By the end of season 7 she had turned into a strong young woman who had gone through a ton of shit including her addiction to magic, and the untimely death of Tara.

Willow gave the appearance of change, sure, but really, the most you could really say is she got more confidant over the years. Even her supposed turn towards lesbianism (which was handled very poorly) didn't really change her quirky, nerdy sense of humour. She was a student and learner throughout. I mean, I can see the same things coming out of her mouth in Season 2 that I could see in Season 7 and it would fit because she really didn't change that much. She endured much, true. But she didn't change.

As for Xander, he was probablly the most underdeveloped character, however he went from being comic relief to an actually person.

Naw, he was comic relief pretty much through the Season 7 finale. He may have gotten just a bit of depth here and there with Anya, but he never really grew much beyond what we saw in Seasons 2-3 of Buffy.

Anya, Tara, Spike, Giles, Andrew and even Dawn also were developed very well.

I'll give you Spike. Tara never changed from Season 4 to Season 6 when she died at all. Anya changed very, very little throughout the years. Giles was static throughout the series. Andrew.....reallly?.....He was only on the show a couple years and really never got any development at all. Dawn went from super whiny to less whiny but that was about it.

Granted, not everyone on Angel developed alot either, but no one on Buffy really moved that far from where they started in Season 1-2.

Edit: Of course, it should be noted, Buffy wasn't about character change. Angel was intentionally focused on the next phase of life after Buffy (e.h. High School/College). This is why many have said it's a more mature show.....of course it was, that was the intent. It was about going out in the world, growing into who you are going to be which is exactly what the characters on Angel did.

[Jen]

amdmiami wrote:

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Willow developed also sooo much over the series. When we met her in season 1, she was a small insecure nerdy girl who was wuite bland. By the end of season 7 she had turned into a strong young woman who had gone through a ton of shit including her addiction to magic, and the untimely death of Tara.

Willow had almost no development during the seven seasons of Buffy. The following is an excerpt from the recap of Orpheus over at Television Without Pity:

Willow chirps, "I flayed a guy alive and tried to destroy the world." Well, that exchange certainly highlights the differences between Angel and Buffy. Here are two characters (or, technically, one character and one collection of quirky mannerisms) who had season-long descents last year, who made bad decisions for selfish reasons, and whose behavior had significant consequences for the other characters. But one of them has been dealing with the personal and interpersonal fallout of his decisions in virtually every episode for a year now. The other one occasionally makes jokes about that time she tortured and murdered someone.

Willow never changed. You'd think that going completely evil, killing Warren, trying to kill Jonathan and Andrew, and almost killing Giles would have changed her. Made her remorseful. Perhaps she could even act like she regretted the choices she made during the end of Season 6.

Nope. I think she had an episode of two where she dealt with things, and that was it. Then, she went right back to being cheerful, clueless Willow.

Wesley, on the other hand, dealt with the ramifications of his actions in Season 3 of Angel until the moment he died. When he chose to kidnap Connor, that changed him. When Justine slit his throat, that changed him. When Angel tried to kill him, that changed him. See where I'm going here? He didn't revert back to the prat-falling, idiot Wes of Buffy (or Angel S1-2). Instead, he changed. He grew. All because of the actions he took.

That's the fundamental difference between Buffy and Angel. The choices the Buffy characters made never made a lasting effect. The choices the Angel characters made turned the world upside down....where it stayed.

[amdmiami]

Jen wrote:

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Willow had almost no development during the seven seasons of Buffy. The following is an excerpt from the recap of Orpheus over at Television Without Pity:

Willow never changed. You'd think that going completely evil, killing Warren, trying to kill Jonathan and Andrew, and almost killing Giles would have changed her. Made her remorseful. Perhaps she could even act like she regretted the choices she made during the end of Season 6.

Nope. I think she had an episode of two where she dealt with things, and that was it. Then, she went right back to being cheerful, clueless Willow.

Wesley, on the other hand, dealt with the ramifications of his actions in Season 3 of Angel until the moment he died. When he chose to kidnap Connor, that changed him. When Justine slit his throat, that changed him. When Angel tried to kill him, that changed him. See where I'm going here? He didn't revert back to the prat-falling, idiot Wes of Buffy (or Angel S1-2). Instead, he changed. He grew. All because of the actions he took.

That's the fundamental difference between Buffy and Angel. The choices the Buffy characters made never made a lasting effect. The choices the Angel characters made turned the world upside down....where it stayed.

I don't think people want to see a whole season where Willow is going through a guilt trip. I'm glad she got over it quickly, because the show had bigger stuff to deal with in season 7 than a mopey Willow. Besides if she had been all sad and regretfull throughout the season, you guys would probablly complained about that too.

[label]

[quote=amdmiami;1934693]

Jen wrote:

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[
I don't think people want to see a whole season where Willow is going through a guilt trip.

We just want to see what would be realistic in real life. There are life-changing events that...well....change you and in Buffy-land, this doesn't happen. No one wants a whole season where Willow is going through one long guilt trip, but yeah, we do want to see that it impacted who she is at her core much like we saw Wes after his throat was slit.

[amdmiami]

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amdmiami wrote:

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We just want to see what would be realistic in real life. There are life-changing events that...well....change you and in Buffy-land, this doesn't happen. No one wants a whole season where Willow is going through one long guilt trip, but yeah, we do want to see that it impacted who she is at her core much like we saw Wes after his throat was slit.

Well Willow did seem a bit held back every time she she did a spell. There were also several mentions on how she wanted to keep her power in control.

[Jen]

label wrote:

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We just want to see what would be realistic in real life. There are life-changing events that...well....change you and in Buffy-land, this doesn't happen. No one wants a whole season where Willow is going through one long guilt trip, but yeah, we do want to see that it impacted who she is at her core much like we saw Wes after his throat was slit.

Exactly. Willow wasn't affected by the fact that she killed a man. It was almost as if she didn't care. She went evil, tortured a guy, and then came back as Season 1 Willow. At least with Wes, we got to see how his actions affected him. On Angel, we got to see that if you make such a horrendous mistake, you have to live with the consequences of that action.

Willow never had to do that.

amdmiami wrote:

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Well Willow did seem a bit held back every time she she did a spell. There were also several mentions on how she wanted to keep her power in control.

Very true....but then she pops over to Angel and becomes SuperWicca!Willow with no qualms what-so-ever. And her conversations with Wes in Orpheus really shows that she hasn't changed. Hell, even Wes said (and I paraphrase here) "You're exactly the same as when I left Sunnydale." Dude left Sunnydale 3-1/2 years before that moment. Are you the same as were 3 years ago? I know I'm not, and I never kidnapped someone's kid and had my throat sliced.

People change, plain and simple. The characters on Buffy never did.

[Trent Roman]

Did we watch the same Buffy Season 7? Willow was mopey. The self-confidence she gained during most of the series was shattered; she was hesitant and frightful, not only about her magic, but all her relationships. It always had to be somebody else pushing her to open up again, emotionally or magic-wise. You can't count one appearance on another show as defining a character.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

[Trubinator]

I prefer Angel. BTVS had some hillarious episodes, and I liked Giles, but the whole series just went FAR downhill after season 3. The business with the potentials and all the teeheeishness during the college years bugged the hell out of me. On the other hand, Angel, while having serious issues of its own, was a more mature and interesting program. It toyed with darker themes and serialized story arcs. Oh, and it had David Boreanaz as its lead, which is always good.

[OdoWanKenobi]

But you can. The almost flippant way she talks about committing murder speaks volumes about just how little it affected her character.

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Loved BTVS. "Angel" was a lame, aimless spinoff with mostly inferior talent in front of the cameras.

[I am not Spock]

It's like picking between my children (although I can't imagine that. I'm not a parent). I honestly love both shows. Angel is darker and more mature, which gives it some serious brownie points in its favour. Buffy has more humour and standout phenomenal episodes like 'Hush', 'Restless', 'The Body', 'Once More, With Feeling' etc.

I grew up with Buffy, so I'll have to give that the nod. But I also grew up with TNG first and foremost (it was my first ST series), although my head tells me that DS9 is the superior show. Angel is like the DS9 to TNG's Buffy. It is in many respects a more consistent and better show, but I just can't help it...

Buffy wins, by the slightest inch, for me. But I love both.

[Trent Roman]

OdoWanKenobi wrote:

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But you can. The almost flippant way she talks about committing murder speaks volumes about just how little it affected her character.

I don't agree. I just checked my disks (which I can do now, because I got Angel Seasons 4 and 5 for my birthday a few days back, which is totally sweet, apropos of nothing). The writer for "Orpheus" was one Mere Smith, who has never written for or, as far as I can tell, otherwise worked on Buffy. So I'm not taking a line by a writer who may not have had any familiarity with the character (as she was currently being portrayed on the sister show) in a cameo appearance outside of her mainstay series as representing the essence of her development. It certainly doesn't outweight the zeitgeist established for Season 7 Willow across twenty-two episodes.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

[label]

I am not Spock wrote:

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It's like picking between my children (although I can't imagine that. I'm not a parent). I honestly love both shows. Angel is darker and more mature, which gives it some serious brownie points in its favour. Buffy has more humour and standout phenomenal episodes like 'Hush', 'Restless', 'The Body', 'Once More, With Feeling' etc.

I grew up with Buffy, so I'll have to give that the nod. But I also grew up with TNG first and foremost (it was my first ST series), although my head tells me that DS9 is the superior show. Angel is like the DS9 to TNG's Buffy. It is in many respects a more consistent and better show, but I just can't help it...

This is so where I'm at though I land on the DS9/Angel side of the coin. I love all 4 shows but the darker, more mature and serial elements really are the difference for me in both cases, not that that subtracts anything from TNG and Buffy which are both also brilliant.

[Chemahkuu]

Trent Roman wrote:

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I don't agree. I just checked my disks (which I can do now, because I got Angel Seasons 4 and 5 for my birthday a few days back, which is totally sweet, apropos of nothing). The writer for "Orpheus" was one Mere Smith, who has never written for or, as far as I can tell, otherwise worked on Buffy. So I'm not taking a line by a writer who may not have had any familiarity with the character (as she was currently being portrayed on the sister show) in a cameo appearance outside of her mainstay series as representing the essence of her development. It certainly doesn't outweight the zeitgeist established for Season 7 Willow across twenty-two episodes.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Exactly, heck the episode "The Killer in Me" title and all is devoted to Willow having bottled up the guilt for everything that happened during that event and finally having to come to terms with it, and only managing to not fall apart from it entirely by having Kennedy there to save her. Its the only time I can stand the character of Kennedy.

Willow admits shes not only guilty for Warren's murder but feels that Tara's was her fault as well for not saving her, and that if was only her swift intervention on saving Buffy that stopped it from being three lives.

Every spell no matter how small has her panicking for fear of harming someone else, Warren being that constant reminder of what might happen. It wasn't simply forgotten.

[Hardin]

Angel's lame. His hair sticks straight up and he's bloody stupid.

couldn't resist