Buffy or Angel?

[amdmiami]

Skywalker wrote:

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The same thing happened with Buffy, strangely enough.

IMO season 5 of Buffy is the second best after season 2. Season 5 felt like one long story and it had the most epic feel to it. I also think that season 6 of Buffy is underrated. I loved how dark it was but most people hate it because of that. The only think I hated about season 6 was the disgusting Spuffy relationship were they had degrading public sex every chance they got.

[Trent Roman]

Buffy. I think Angel was better in most of the technical aspects, but Buffy had that metaphorical dimension going for it Angel never really had. It was just easier to empathize and relate to Buffy's characters than Angel's, however neat many of them were.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

[Jenee]

Ethros wrote:

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Badass Wes

Oh, how could I forget?!?

I loved badass Wes.

[label]

Chemahkuu wrote:

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The majority opinion I've seen is more along the lines of "season 4 is crap, season 5 is good but not as good as the first three" which is about right.

That's certainly not what I've heard. In fact, most people I've talked to, even here on this board, consider Season 4 to be the high point based on it's tight, serial storytelling.

Season 5 overall is probably not quite as good as Season 3 but I'd definitely say it ranks above Season 2 and especially Season 1.

[label]

Ethros wrote:

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Season 4 is actually my favourite season of Angel. If you study the arc plot yes it is bullshit and makes no sense really, but that's mainly due to Charisma's pregnncy messing up their plans, and I don't really care anyways. For general consistency of episode quality it only falls under Buffy Season 3 IMO. Everything from Spin The Bottle to Orpheus is brilliant- Angelus, The Beast, Faith, Badass Wes, Rain of Fire, Lilah etc, I had many a fangasm when it first aired

Exactly my thoughts as well. Also agreed that only Buffy Season 3 was better overall in the Whedonverse.

[OdoWanKenobi]

I don't hate season four of Angel, and still think it's better than 99% of the drivel on TV, I just have problems with it that make it pale in comparison to the other seasons:

1. Connor is a terrible character. There's no other way to spin this.
2. Having such a beloved character as Cordelia not really be Cordelia for the entire season makes things seem very weird. If not for You're Welcome, the last time we really saw Cordelia as we knew her would have been at the end of season three.
3. Damn was this season dark with The Beast, Angelus, Wesley, etc. (I'm not complaining about that I really liked those elements) which makes the Jasmine episodes seem downright silly. It was really a bad way to end such a dark ark.

[label]

OdoWanKenobi wrote:

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I don't hate season four of Angel, and still think it's better than 99% of the drivel on TV, I just have problems with it that make it pale in comparison to the other seasons:

1. Connor is a terrible character. There's no other way to spin this.

Yeah, in Season 4 his character was really rough. I like where they took him in Season 5 but it was definitely hard to hang with him in Season 4. Doesn't take much away from my ability to enjoy the arc but I can't disagree with this asessment.

2. Having such a beloved character as Cordelia not really be Cordelia for the entire season makes things seem very weird. If not for You're Welcome, the last time we really saw Cordelia as we knew her would have been at the end of season three.

True, but the producers did the best they could with a Charisma real-life pregnancy. It certainly wasn't the direction they wanted to go but what else can you do? Given that, I give them a pass on the lame Cordy arc for Season 4.

3. Damn was this season dark with The Beast, Angelus, Wesley, etc. (I'm not complaining about that I really liked those elements) which makes the Jasmine episodes seem downright silly. It was really a bad way to end such a dark ark.

The Jasmine arc certainly seemed counter-climax when I first watched it. However, on repeat viewings, it's actually quite elegant when you consider the whole series in context. (At least from where I'm typing).

[unimatrix7]

Angel, by a country mile. I loved Buffy in the early years, but it declined sharply in season 4. The writers were in way over their heads with The Initiative, and despite their best efforts to darken the tone it came off as silly and unintentionally hilarious. Season 5 was a mild improvement, but seasons 6 and 7 were, IMO, abysmal.

In contrast, Angel went from strength to strength, with the only missteps being Connor and that stupidly convoluted arc that dominated most of season 4.

I think Connor might have been more tolerable if anybody other than Vincent Kartheiser had the part. His looks, his voice, his line delivery...it all just annoyed the hell out of me.

But character-wise, I loved how the writers grew Cordelia and Wesley, and later Fred, but I wish we got to see more of Kate Lockley. She was a champ

[OdoWanKenobi]

label wrote:

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The Jasmine arc certainly seemed counter-climax when I first watched it. However, on repeat viewings, it's actually quite elegant when you consider the whole series in context. (At least from where I'm typing).

I'd hardly describe it as elegant. More like convoluted. But I just felt that the entire season had been leading up the the honest to god end of the freaking world. Not the real end of course (Angel and crew would stop it) but it truly felt like the biggest and baddest of the would-be apocalypses so far in either show (The Beat appearing and wiping out W&H, fire raining from the sky, perpetual darkness, and our heroes being so desperate that they would risk unleashing Angelus.). Then for it to finally take the path that it did felt like a letdown. Not to mention inconsistent. For the entire season, the big bad is like the archetypal evil, but when we finally see Jasmine, she's practically benevolent (besides that whole eating people thing.) It seems a huge change in character that just doesn't work for me.

[Lindley]

OdoWanKenobi wrote:

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when we finally see Jasmine, she's practically benevolent (besides that whole eating people thing.) It seems a huge change in character that just doesn't work for me.

I'm not sure "benevolent" is the right term. She made people happy and content, yes, but she did so by removing their free will. That's an old story that's been done many times in Science Fiction-----the Star Trek: New Frontier novels have also done it, for one-----but this approach to the tale worked reasonably well.

My complaint with season 4 is mainly about early Cordy. Before we learn it's not really her in the pilot's seat, her behavior just seems weird. As in, completely wrong. And even knowing ahead of time what's up, those episodes are still hard to watch.

[OdoWanKenobi]

I'm not saying that Jasmine was a bad idea. It's an intriguing one. I just feel it was the wrong story for the climax of the season 4 arc.

[Thrall]

Angel. It was the one show James Marsters didn't have enough time to completely ruin.

[BigFoot]

I love both shows, but I do prefer Buffy.

[crouteru]

I haven't seen Angel in a while, but considering how well it's doing, I might just have to watch it again.

[Jen]

See, I prefer Season 4 of Angel to Season 5. Season 4 certainly had it's downsides, but the good of that season by far outweighs the bad.

Connor, for example. Yeah, I disliked Connor, but obviously not as much as other people. Even though his "reason for being born" was simply written in because of Charisma Carpenters' pregnancy, at least it was a reason. That's what bugged me about Season 3 of Angel. They never gave a reason for how Connor was even born. It might be a dumb reason, but it worked for me given the circumstances.

As for Cordy being the bad guy, I had read somewhere, many years ago, that Cordy was always suppose to be the big bad of Season 4. If I remember correctly, the end of the season was suppose to be Angel and Cordy in this huge fight. So, really, no matter what, Cordy wouldn't have been Cordy in Season 4. I don't have a problem with that. Now, yes. I missed the "real" Cordy in Season 4 (and 5), but this was something the Wheadonverse had tried before and failed at (having one of the main, GOOD characters go bad). They tried it with Willow, and it just didn't work. At least with Cordy, they worked an entire season of her being bad and pulling the gang's threads. It worked. And at least we got "You're Welcome" in S5 to bring the real Cordy back.

Unlike everyone else, I didn't have a problem with Jasmine. I think it was meant to be a stark juxtaposition to the rest of the season. The Fang Gang was expecting the ultimate evil, and instead, the got someone who was bring around world peace. Yeah, it was at a terrible cost, but it was still world peace.

Season 5 of Angel suffered for a couple of reasons. Number one was Spike. I was a huge fan of his until he, uh, fell in love with Buffy. After that I couldn't stand him. Plus, they destroyed the wonderful relationship Angel had built with Cordy by having Angel suddenly back in love with Buffy. It made no sense.

Then there was the whole Lindsey arc that didn't make sense. And Illyria. And the Nazi submarine episode. Plus, Lorne, my favorite character, was reduced to the background.