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Old August 9 2008, 01:45 AM   #91
Kegek
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

Hirogen Alpha wrote: View Post
I thought the phrase in Superman Returns was "truth, justice, and all that other stuff?" Or did another character say otherwise? (Or are we just talking about a different Superman film?)
Yeah, Perry White says that line to a gaggle of reporters. IIRC he wants to know if Superman still stands for that. Superman himself never uses the phrase nor is questioned about it.
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Old August 9 2008, 02:24 AM   #92
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

The Old Mixer wrote: View Post
Galactus wrote: View Post
The only problem with doing a Superman movie is that the people that would make the movie are those type of people that try to relate to Superman instead of just excepting who he is. They either can't believe someone like Superman could exist or even if he does they don't buy into what he represents.

If we get Superman back to fighting for truth, tolerance and justice then all will be well. I can just hope.
I see a contradiction in these statements. It's "Truth, Justice, and the American Way". Accept it, buy into it.
Yeah, honestly, the intentional exclusion of that (to make the flick play better with audiences hostile to "the American Way" rankled me a bit.

Thing is, "The American Way" is an ideal... and whether or not you believe that America has ever, in reality, actually lived up to the ideal has nothing to do with whether or not the saying is relevant.

If you want to replace that line with something... it should be with the closest approximation to what "The American Way" is supposed to mean.

"Truth, Justice, Freedom and Individual Responsibility" If that really want to change it, I could live with that change.

But not "tolerance." Why not? Because I've seen more intolerance perpetrated in the past several decades in the name of "tolerance" than under any other guise.

"Tolerance" means all sorts of things, depending on what you're talking about... and nobody ever really means "be tolerant of everything." They always mean "be tolerant of what I want, but I don't have to be tolerant of what you want."

There are lots of things I'm not inclined to be tolerant of. Dictatorships... nope, not tolerant of that. Lies... nope, not tolerant of that. Murder... nope, not tolerant of that. Suppression of free speech... nope, not tolerant of that.

Damn, I'm pretty intolerant, aren't I? But if you're honest, most of you are too...

"Tolerance" is just a mask for suppressing opposing viewpoints... by calling those opposing viewpoints "intolerant" and thus making them intolerable. The irony shouldn't be lost on anyone...
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Old August 9 2008, 02:34 AM   #93
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

"Tolerance" is just a mask for suppressing opposing viewpoints... by calling those opposing viewpoints "intolerant" and thus making them intolerable. The irony shouldn't be lost on anyone...
Yes, but the clarion cry against tolerance isn't against a tolerance that defends dictatorships, lies, etc. It is tolerance for viewpoints that those who don't like tolerance don't care for. And they mask their intolerance for those alternative viewpoints in "free speech".
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Old August 9 2008, 03:01 AM   #94
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

First it was Truth and Justice. Next it was Truth, Tolerance and Justice. In the 50's it was added to what everyone knows "a never-ending battle for truth, justice and the American way.", in the 60's it was changed to "truth, justice and freedom."

Since then all of these have been used depending on who was telling the tale. I personally like truth, justice, and freedom in our world today.
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Old August 9 2008, 04:04 AM   #95
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

"Truth, Justice and the American Way" was first used on the radio show in 1942, and the phrase went back to just "Truth and Justice" a year or two later. "Truth, Tolerance and Justice" was used in the Kirk Alyn serial in 1948. "Truth, Justice and the American Way" came back in the 1950s. Lois & Clark in the 1990s reverted back to the original "Truth and Justice", and I don't recall anybody raising a ruckus about it. The problem with the approach they used in Superman Returns is that by having Perry say "Truth, Justice and all that stuff" it drew attention to "the American Way" being left out and to some even seemed dismissive.
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Old August 9 2008, 04:51 AM   #96
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

Instead of "Truth, Justice and the American Way," they'll just call it "Hollywoodland."
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Old August 9 2008, 06:02 AM   #97
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

The only reason they took out the "American Way" was because Singer thought audiences would find it too corny (and frankly I can't imagine Frank Langella saying that whole phrase with a straight face either; his Perry was just not a corny kind of guy).

Unfortunately, Singer didn't count on the conservative crowd that loves to get deeply offended and morally outraged at every little thing.
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Old August 9 2008, 06:21 AM   #98
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

So we can make it clear for everyone.

It was:
1. "Truth and Justice" the beginning 1941?
2. "Truth, Justice and the American way" (radio 1942-1944)
3. "Truth, tolerance, and justice (serial 1948)
4 "Truth, Justice and the American way" (when it the TV show made it the signature phrase. 1952-1958)
4 "Truth, Justice, and Freedom" (cartoon 1966)
5 "Truth, Justice and the American way" Superman: The Movie

again I think different writers have used different things depending on their feelings. Lois and Clark went back to "Truth and Justice" I thinkt the 80's cartoon said "Truth, Justice and the American way".
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Old August 9 2008, 06:23 AM   #99
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

I can't wait for "Dishonesty, Revenge and the Terrorist Way".
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Old August 9 2008, 07:56 AM   #100
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Thing is, "The American Way" is an ideal... and whether or not you believe that America has ever, in reality, actually lived up to the ideal has nothing to do with whether or not the saying is relevant.
Exactly. If one remembers when Supes said that in Superman: The Movie, Lois balks at it claiming that he'll have to fight every elected official around. Supes doesn't fight for "America! Fuck yeah!" Rather, it's what America is suppose to stand for.

JacksonArcher wrote: View Post
I can't wait for "Dishonesty, Revenge and the Terrorist Way".
I'll have to remember that.
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Old August 9 2008, 02:03 PM   #101
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

Well, I didn't know that they actually used "tolerance" in the Kirk Alyn serials, so it looks like I owe Galactus an apology. (Please don't eat my planet.) I would still contend that "Truth, Justice, and the American Way" is the most iconic version of that slogan, but in using a version that goes back to the '40s, the Big G wasn't himself imposing a revision on the mythos, which renders my point moot.

JacksonArcher wrote: View Post
I can't wait for "Dishonesty, Revenge and the Terrorist Way".
That would be Batman....
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Old August 9 2008, 03:41 PM   #102
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

What do you think "the American Way" means today anyway? I am sure in the world today it does not mean much. Even to Americans it means different things. I would say about 1/3 thinks it means one thing, 1/3 thinks it means another, and the other 1/3 either probably believes a mixture of the other two or doesn't care.

I didn't even know there was a fall out to conservatives for leaving it out. I am sure for the
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Old August 9 2008, 05:16 PM   #103
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

What was the greatest thing about Dark Knight - the most "faithful to the comic" Joker, Batman, and Two-Face ever seen.

What was the worst thing about Superman Returns - An entire movie full of things that were not faithful to the comic, but where instead faithful to a 1979 movie with random modern updates out of left field.

The pressure better be on, and the fix is simple. Reboot. Get a guy that looks like Alex Ross painted him. A big, strong, wise Superman. Make his enemy someone iconic from the comics and do him faithfully.

You will have millions of dollars and the goodwill of fans. SIMPLE.
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Old August 9 2008, 05:17 PM   #104
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

I've been reading Richard Donner and Johns' "Last Son", and this would have been a MUCH BETTER story exploring Superman as a father, while still having tons of action.
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Old August 9 2008, 05:35 PM   #105
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Re: So is the pressure on Superman?

Chess Piece Face wrote: View Post
What was the greatest thing about Dark Knight - the most "faithful to the comic" Joker, Batman, and Two-Face ever seen.
Well, one quibble is that the Joker in the comics didn't paint his face or dye his hair. They were permanently coloured that way as a result of a chemical accident. So that wasn't faithful to the comics. However, TDK featured the BEST version of the above characters seen onscreen yet (IMH).

What was the worst thing about Superman Returns - An entire movie full of things that were not faithful to the comic, but where instead faithful to a 1979 movie with random modern updates out of left field.
Actually, I'd cite Kate Bosworth's somewhat dull and too young Lois as well as overly-slow pacing. And a rather uninteresting plot by Lex. Though I still like the movie a lot. And I take some of your points about the emphasis on the 1979 movie - the depiction of Luthor in particular.

The pressure better be on, and the fix is simple. Reboot. Get a guy that looks like Alex Ross painted him. A big, strong, wise Superman. Make his enemy someone iconic from the comics and do him faithfully.

You will have millions of dollars and the goodwill of fans. SIMPLE.
Did Christopher Reeve look like Alex Ross' Superman? Hmmm, not overly. But many people still think of him as the definitive Superman and he's still arguably the most popular depiction of him. The guy in those World's Finest fan trailers does, but Routh could out-act him anyday. And to me, he captured the essence of Superman, even if he looked a little too young. But that problem will be solved, given the time that's elapsed since SR.


I think if the sequel to SR contains more action, gives Superman more to do, more sparring and interaction with Lois and a worthy opponent, it'll generate as much goodwill as any reboot. Let's face it, a lot of people won't care if it's a sequel or a reboot. Just as long as the bloody thing entertains.
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