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Old July 30 2008, 10:37 AM   #31
DarKush
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

I brought up sales figures because Priest's don't match with all of this adoration he seems to get in those links you provided, and from what I've heard about this on other forums. If everyone loved him so much, why wasn't Panther such a big success during his run? I do agree with you that money or ratings doesn't equal quality, or replace quality. But then again, the results are the results. I think Priest tried to bring white readers in, adding Ross and Nikki, providing a 'white' POV, or gateway to Panther. Making him an enigmatic, mysterious badass, a la Morpheus or just about every Samuel L. Jackson character. But I think Hudlin has tried to tell Panther's story through the Panther. I think Hudlin has tried to keep the badass elements but ditched the 'white' perspective.

Granted I don't like the Mary Sue elements of it either. I want Hudlin to do a better job revamping Panther's rogues or creating new rogues. I want to see Panther really getting challenged, so that we can see him take a punch, get back on his feet, and find a way to overcome, which is the essence of a great hero for me. I also would like to see more of the political/governing aspects of Wakanda, especially since I'm a poli sci grad.

To be honest, I also have a problem with Wakanda being so technologically advanced, but then again, this is the Marvel Universe, so it's not that big of a problem for me. And besides, it's good to see an African country portrayed as rich, powerful, and advanced. Wakanda might be the first ever depicted that way in mainstream comics.

Also, not every Panther villian has been white. He just brought back Killmonger and in one of the previous books he fought some Arabian guy, can't remember his name.

I don't see what's so bad about his characterization of Storm, as opposed to what we've seen before. He does try to emphasize her regalness, her royalty, and respects her power-level, which should've been upped years ago. I don't think she's even Omega level and she pretty much controls nature. I would like to see them move from the honeymoon phase and deal with some 'real' marriage issues, but I don't want them to break up.

Finally I think Panther has been a 'minor' character because he didn't get the push he perhaps deserved years ago. The same could be said for a lot of characters. The ongoing battle between Hudlin's supporters and detractors show that BP has made an impact on a lot of people. Plus, he has a cool origin, a classic, iconic look, and could possibly make for an interesting series of movies. But I think one of his problems is that he is black and that he is African, and it would be hard for the majority white audience in America, the primary audience for a comic or movie, to really relate to and support. Before you bring up Hancock, he was portrayed as a drunk bum who ultimately was redeemed and even physically saved by a normal white guy. So, that idea or depiction of blacks isn't too far from the media norm. Even I sometimes shamefully can't relate or even imagine a black nation as powerful as Wakanda after being fed a constant media diet of disease, famine, genocide, and despair when he comes to issues about Africa, Haiti, and blacks in America.

Hudlin might not be handling him the right way, but I think both Priest and Hudlin have done a good job showing how cool and vital the Panther could be to the Marvel Universe. I also applaud TPTB at Marvel for getting behind both of them, and trying to keep this character and book going.

Black characters, not to mention Hispanic, Asian, and other non-white characters have a long way to go before they ever really break through to the majority white audience, but it's cool to finally start to see BP, Storm and then Luke Cage and even Blade on covers and getting some attention and respect, or to see Vixen, Black Lightning, new Firestorm, etc. in the Justice League. I've also liked the new Blue Beetle. This stuff does have a whiff of gimmicky to it, but I don't think they should stop doing it, even if it is a gimmick, because who knows what little kid or grown adult might be turned on to comics if they see a cover with someone that looks like them on it? Diversifying comics I think brings more people in and is in line with the increasing globalization of cultures occuring right now in the real world.

Last edited by DarKush; July 30 2008 at 10:48 AM.
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Old July 30 2008, 03:56 PM   #32
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Well, Will Smith has a string of huge hits in which he played different types of characters, and there are other bankable African-American stars, so I don't think audience identification would necessarily be a problem for a series of Black Panther films if they were well made.

As far as the sales for Priest's Black Panther, it should be pointed out that in the current comics marketplace a 62-issue run is actually very good for most characters.

Increasing diversity in comics is a laudable goal, as is providing black and Latino characters who are positive role models (and in that light, did everybody hear about the Comic-Con announcement that the Milestone characters will be introduced into the DC Universe, with Static joining the Teen Titans and Icon slated to join the Justice League?). And if the stories are well written there's really no reason for this type of thing to come off as gimmicky.

But I think Hudlin does a disservice to this cause as his writing is so clumsy. Wakanda as a rich, advanced African nation is a fine idea, and some of the criticisms on those Live Journal pages don't ring true (like an isolated, landlocked country becoming advanced being illogical) since comics have always included elements that don't make real world sense and need a large dose of suspension of disbelief. But a Wakanda that has the cure to cancer but won't share it and has plenty of oil but doesn't drill it because all of its energy needs are met with green technologies comes off as wanky nonsense.

It strikes me that in putting forward positive representations of an African country and an African hero that Hudlin is overcompensating and often going so far over the top that it sabotages his goals by making the Panther and all of Wakanda uber-Mary Sues. The poor dialogue really doesn't help either.

Now, obviously discussion of the series has been racially charged on some message boards - which I hadn't been aware of until this thread prompted me to look around - and some of the criticisms of the series have been framed in racist terms, which it seems has unfortunately led to a situation where some dismiss all criticism of the series as being the result of racism. Well, no, however much some may like the series, and however out of line some of the comments on message boards may have been, there is a valid point of view towards the series that is very critical.
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Old July 30 2008, 04:38 PM   #33
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

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I am sorry but your reasons for disliking Black Panther have very little to do with the actual stories and more to do with who is writing. You reference T'Chaka beating Captain America and your reaction is right in line with how the story was written. I mean you seem to be mad at Hudlin for not following what Priest did.
Yes, I am; he changed Priest's story for something vastly inferior, and, as I said, did it because he wanted to use Captain America to show how cool T'Chaka was.
And the wedding was flat out good.
This is subjective, but, no, it wasn't. He completely rewrote the characters' history to turn Storm into BP's deferential, girly sidekick.
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Old July 30 2008, 04:50 PM   #34
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

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[
Yes, I am; he changed Priest's story for something vastly inferior, and, as I said, did it because he wanted to use Captain America to show how cool T'Chaka was.
And what exactly was wrong with that? Captain America has always been the measuring stick for how good a fighter someone is in the Marvel Universe. It has always been said that Black Panther and Captain America were always on the same level with Cap always getting the slight edge. So is it really a stretch that his father would have defeated a young Cap? Like I said your reaction is exactly like the General in the story, that is just flat out impossible

This is subjective, but, no, it wasn't. He completely rewrote the characters' history to turn Storm into BP's deferential, girly sidekick.
So is Sue Reed's girly sidekick? You think Storm getting married and becoming a Queen is making her a girly sidekick. Wow. Just wow. Is that really how you view marriage.
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Old July 30 2008, 04:54 PM   #35
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

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And what exactly was wrong with that?
It's an example of Mary Sueism, remaking the story to beat up Cap to make another guy look cool.
So is Sue Reed's girly sidekick?
Depends on how their marriage is written; in the Lee/Kirby period, for example, that's a fair characterization (though the same could be said of most if not all Silver Age female characters.
You think Storm getting married and becoming a Queen is making her a girly sidekick.
No, the way Hudlin writes it is making her a girly sidekick.

I don't object to the idea in principle, but I do object to rewriting the characters' histories, and, just generally, bad writing. Hudlin can't write Storm as a powerful, independent figure for beans; she's just an accessory to prove how awesome Black Panther is.
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Old July 30 2008, 05:21 PM   #36
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Are you sure that we are talking about the same book? The way he writes Storm is that he first had to find a woman that was strong enough to be Queen of a nation of warriors when she was not even from the country. Then he shows Panther having being afraid of her power, and he showed the man get down on his knees and basically begs her to be his wife while she took care of a guy in 2 seconds that he had been fighting with for minutes.

CC i am sorry but your reasons for disliking BP seem to be that he is not cultural to your liking anymore.
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Old July 30 2008, 05:29 PM   #37
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

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CC i am sorry but your reasons for disliking BP seem to be that he is not cultural to your liking anymore.
Culturally to my likely?
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Old July 30 2008, 05:37 PM   #38
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Hudlin's Black Panther is not for you, just like most comics today are not for me. I think the things you hold against Hudlin are the things that all writer's make. They all want to put their stamp on the character.
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Old July 30 2008, 07:55 PM   #39
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Putting your own stamp on a character is not rewriting his history and creating a massive, irresolvable continuity snarl, turning the main character into a giant Mary Sue, and just generally not writing compelling stories (certainly, others have done that, but that's a bad thing).
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Old July 31 2008, 12:24 AM   #40
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Well, Will Smith has a string of huge hits in which he played different types of characters, and there are other bankable African-American stars, so I don't think audience identification would necessarily be a problem for a series of Black Panther films if they were well made.

As far as the sales for Priest's Black Panther, it should be pointed out that in the current comics marketplace a 62-issue run is actually very good for most characters.

Increasing diversity in comics is a laudable goal, as is providing black and Latino characters who are positive role models (and in that light, did everybody hear about the Comic-Con announcement that the Milestone characters will be introduced into the DC Universe, with Static joining the Teen Titans and Icon slated to join the Justice League?). And if the stories are well written there's really no reason for this type of thing to come off as gimmicky.

But I think Hudlin does a disservice to this cause as his writing is so clumsy. Wakanda as a rich, advanced African nation is a fine idea, and some of the criticisms on those Live Journal pages don't ring true (like an isolated, landlocked country becoming advanced being illogical) since comics have always included elements that don't make real world sense and need a large dose of suspension of disbelief. But a Wakanda that has the cure to cancer but won't share it and has plenty of oil but doesn't drill it because all of its energy needs are met with green technologies comes off as wanky nonsense.

It strikes me that in putting forward positive representations of an African country and an African hero that Hudlin is overcompensating and often going so far over the top that it sabotages his goals by making the Panther and all of Wakanda uber-Mary Sues. The poor dialogue really doesn't help either.

Now, obviously discussion of the series has been racially charged on some message boards - which I hadn't been aware of until this thread prompted me to look around - and some of the criticisms of the series have been framed in racist terms, which it seems has unfortunately led to a situation where some dismiss all criticism of the series as being the result of racism. Well, no, however much some may like the series, and however out of line some of the comments on message boards may have been, there is a valid point of view towards the series that is very critical.

I agree with you that all of the criticism of Hudlin isn't racially tinged, but that doesn't mean some of it isn't either. Or that maybe some critics just can't wrap their head around the Panther being the star of his own book, and telling the story through his eyes.

I tend to agree with you that Hudlin is overcompensating a bit. But when I look at the history of black comic characters I can understand why he is.

As for the bankability of black stars, I agree and disagree with you. Denzel, Eddie, Halle, Samuel L. Jackson, Will Smith, Morgan Freeman, and perhaps Jamie Foxx are the most bankable, but I feel that often comes with preconditions. Most of the time they are one of a handful of blacks, or the only blacks in the movie. And they are usually paired with a white/Latina love interests, if they get a love interests at all. Which would all be issues with a BP film that would more than likely have a predominately black cast and perhaps either Monica Lynne or Storm as the love interest.

The stuff that happened with Spawn, in which the suits told McFarlane he had to add white characters to the film so it wouldn't be seen as a 'black' film is part of the problem I see with a Black Panther film.

Most major films about Africa are really about white people in Africa and you're seeing whatever problem is occurring in the movie through their eyes, or Africa and Africans serve merely as backdrops and living props. I wonder if the suits are really willing to spend money on a film based in Africa, with a predominately black cast. It would be unprecedented.

Tyler Perry's films, which have predominately black casts, have done very well lately, but that's because they are made on a shoestring budget.

I think a BP movie can work, but it would have a hard time initially bringing in an audience that might not feel they could relate to a black superhero, especially one who isn't wisecracking or not in a comedy/dramedy. However, if the suits marketed it as a comic book/adventure/sci-fi (whatever film) first then more people might give it a shot. Especially if someone like Will Smith gets involved, even though I don't want to see him play BP.

Last edited by DarKush; July 31 2008 at 10:43 AM.
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Old July 31 2008, 01:11 AM   #41
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

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As far as the culture thing between African American and African, I know plenty of both and for the most part, there is no difference between culture. Of course their are differences such as food and such, but at the core the cultures are the same, just like the difference between Mexicans and Mexican Americans, and say Canadians and Americans.
Sort of off topic (I apologise), but I just had to chime in on this because I think this viewpoint completely incorrect. In my view Black Americans understate to an extreme degree the cultural differences between themselves and their African cousins. There's such a wide, wide... wide gap in the two cultures it's not even funny. I think there's a certain feeling of kinship between both, but the truth is that they each have their own distinct cultures. The idea that the difference in cultures is analogous to those seen between Mexicans and Mexican Americans and Canadians and Americans is simply wrong.

Perhaps you have African friends that might have given you this impression, but if you really want to get a good idea of the extent of the cultural differences I encourage you to dig a little deeper.
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Old July 31 2008, 02:10 AM   #42
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

dragunzng

I have several African friends for years on years and from different countries in Africa, and I can say based on my personal experiences the differences between us are no different than say me and someone black from Cali or NY. The core values, interests, morals, religion, political views, music, etc are exactly the same. Like I said it is no different than a Mexican American from an Mexican. Again that is my personal experience.

We have talked on this before, that there are exceptions to this, like I have met people from Africa that felt they were superior to me (I dislike the term African American) and I know there are people here that feel they are superior to people in Africa, but there are people in NY and Cali that feel the same way, so like I said there is no difference.
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Old July 31 2008, 02:33 AM   #43
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Africa is a huge continent of over 900 million people. There is by no means a shared culture throughout the continent, let alone between Africans and African-Americans. Throughout Africa you'll find wide differences in political views, religion, taste in food and music, etc.
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Old July 31 2008, 02:56 AM   #44
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Africa is a huge continent of over 900 million people. There is by no means a shared culture throughout the continent, let alone between Africans and African-Americans. Throughout Africa you'll find wide differences in political views, religion, taste in food and music, etc.
I wouldn't say that. They might not think exactly alike but there is a lot that is shared, just like there is a lot that is share in Europe, Asia, the Americas, etc. Didn't say they all thought alike but there is a lot in common. The way the world is becoming one economy with companies spread out across the world, we probably will all start thinking alike. I mean Al Gore, got Al Sharpton and Pat Robertson on the same couch trying to save the Earth!
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Old July 31 2008, 03:07 AM   #45
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Is that Flash animation? I suppose they have to be budget conscious to get it on TV but that reminds me of old crudely animated movies we'd watch on film projectors in school. At least it doesn't have those stiff bland character models I've come to expect from Marvel.
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