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Old July 29 2008, 05:13 AM   #16
Galactus
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Hudlin's Black Panther is widely criticized for its writing, while Christopher Priest's 62-issue run (1998-2003) is widely acclaimed.
But who is it critized by? If it is the traditional comic book I am not at all surprised and would expect nothing else. Even with that his sales are in the top 100 and I know a couple of people who have never read comics read the Black Panther. It is just one of those books that will do that.
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Old July 29 2008, 05:16 AM   #17
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

I liked Black Panther as a kid, but haven't read much of anything as an adult. I think the animation is pretty cool and I will check it out for sure.
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Old July 29 2008, 05:19 AM   #18
Out Of My Vulcan Mind
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Galactus wrote: View Post
Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Hudlin's Black Panther is widely criticized for its writing, while Christopher Priest's 62-issue run (1998-2003) is widely acclaimed.
But who is it critized by?
By many of the same people who praised Priest's Black Panther - so you can't assume it's because of racism towards the character or to a black writer or to a comic dealing with racial issues, since all of those elements were present with Christopher Priest's run. It's just different opinions on what constitutes good writing.
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Old July 29 2008, 05:35 AM   #19
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

What they need to do is give the property to me to write and draw.
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Old July 29 2008, 05:52 AM   #20
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

That's a pretty cool style, but I don't know if I could watch an entire series like that.
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Old July 29 2008, 05:54 AM   #21
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

In addition to the criticisms of Hudlin's writing (of which I've only read the marriage to Storm, which was just full of so much wrong), the man has also been extremely unprofessional. When Hudlin took over the line, Christopher Priest was a class act, endorsing the man's writing when the reigns were handed over. However, when fan response to the writing turned sour, Hudlin began posting online under an assumed name as a fan of his own work, trashing Priest's previous run the whole time.

I want to be excited about a Black Panther cartoon (I've loved the character in the past), but with Hudlin at the wheel, I'm not sure I can.
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Old July 29 2008, 05:54 AM   #22
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

It has an eight-episode order. I've read that it's a mini-series rather than an ongoing series, but I'm not sure if that's correct or not.
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Old July 30 2008, 12:15 AM   #23
Galactus
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Galactus wrote: View Post
Out Of My Vulcan Mind wrote: View Post
Hudlin's Black Panther is widely criticized for its writing, while Christopher Priest's 62-issue run (1998-2003) is widely acclaimed.
But who is it critized by?
By many of the same people who praised Priest's Black Panther - so you can't assume it's because of racism towards the character or to a black writer or to a comic dealing with racial issues, since all of those elements were present with Christopher Priest's run. It's just different opinions on what constitutes good writing.
Why can't I? Priest is loved by comic fans for his years of work in the industry. He knows how the industry works and he knows how to get things done and get an audience.

Hudlin runs a network that these comic fans will generally hate, the movies he has done they generally hate. He gave up writing Spiderman to just do Black Panther. I have seen too many postings about things that he has done wrong with Black Panther that have nothing to do with the story that was told or the writing. So I have seen firsthand why they "hate" his work.

dragunzng wrote: View Post
What they need to do is give the property to me to write and draw.
Maybe after I am finished with him. The idea behind behind Black Panther is just a good story. Steel would be on that list too.
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Old July 30 2008, 01:55 AM   #24
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

I'm curious about what people here think Hudlin has done wrong with Black Panther?

I started reading BP on Hudlin's run, and though I think the book is lacking in strong villians, and also makes the mistake of trying to make BP too perfect, I like the artwork, I also like the Storm/BP marriage. I don't think mainstream comics has ever had a black supercouple and I think it's added depth and potential storylines for both characters. I also loved the first six issues, collected in Who is the Black Panther? I just wished that Hudlin kept up that quality of storytelling.

I've also read the two trades that Priest wrote. I don't see much that's noticeably better or worse between the two. Though I think Priest did a great job with Achebe, though he made him a bit too silly toward the end of the Enemy of the State TPB. One thing I didn't care for was Everett Ross narrating the story. I didn't think he was all that funny. Sometimes, but he got to be too much, became annoying, and detracted from the story.
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Old July 30 2008, 02:34 AM   #25
grabmygoblin
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

I think Hudlin's writing is laughably bad. setting aside literary analysis (soldiers 8000 years ago saying "kiss my butt Wakandan!"?), the racism, and most other glaring issues, I'll stick with
  • he chose to completely ignore many events of The Black Panther's history, especially from Priest's run. he rewrote characters in often offending manners without even trying to explain how or why.
and
  • there's a bizarre and outdated form of sexism that is found throughout, mandating women as babymakers and submissive to men.
but don't take my word for it. if you have a live journal account, navigate to the scans_daily community and read the recent six-part analysis of Hudlin's Black Panther:

part one
part two
part three
part four
part five
part six
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Old July 30 2008, 03:13 AM   #26
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Thanks for the links. I read a good deal of them, and to be honest I think a lot of the critics are trying to ream Hudlin for stuff other people do as well.

-For one, I saw a lot of criticism about he doesn't know how nations work. I mean, come on BP is a comic book. And BP is based in the Marvel universe where Namor and Dr. Doom, among others are actual heads of state, and all types of intergalatic empires. You have to allow some fantasy elements in there.

-Storm and BP are being criticized for being written as African-American, not African. If I recall, wasn't Storm's father African-American? And even if not, she lived in America quite some time. And were people criticizing Claremont, Byrne, or any of the other white writers who probably knew as much about African cultures as Hudlin in regards to Storm's cultural depiction? I think a lot of foreign characters have been written by Americans and characterized/depicted through an American lense. Likewise, a lot of Brits write American characters, and no bats an eye. This goes far beyond BP.

-Lionization of Priest's run. If Priest was so great, why didn't he sell more books? Priest did a good job with Panther, but why should Hudlin be beholden to Priest? Comic characters get reimagined all the time. And Hudlin did keep the Dora Milage (sp.). Everett Ross made a cameo, and I'm sure he has done other things.

-Racism. Where is it? Hudlin's BP is very confident, and a bit of a know-it-all, but so is Batman for example. What makes his portrayal racist? Should he be more deferential to white characters? He is a king, so being a little high-handed or dismissive shouldn't be out the norm. And I haven't seen too much of that from either Hudlin or Priest's BP.

Also, when you take into account the history of Africa, and Africans in Western Hemisphere, there is a long, sad, bloody history of tragedy and mistrust between blacks and whites. It would make sense for Wakanda to be cautious of European powers, since in the Marvel universe, they carved up pretty much the rest of Africa (also in the real world), tried to encroach on Wakanda before, etc during the colonial era and even after. That viewpoint doesn't seem so "American" to me. One thing I noticed to, was that the Panther God in the BP marriage issue was a white panther (one person had said BP had a dream in one of the issues in which he was attacked by a white panther or something).

-Perhaps what is driving so many people mad is that Hudlin has perhaps done something that white writers did to black characters for years, and sometimes continue to do, marginalize them. White characters are not the guiding, central characters in Hudlin's BP and I wonder if it isn't disconcerting to a lot of people. Especially after Priest used Ross as a narrator, once again telling a black person's story through a white person's eyes (ie. Last King of Scotland, Cry Freedom, Ghosts of Mississippi, Mississippi Burning, etc., etc.). Priest purposely did that to build up white readership, and he still had weak sales.

-I don't think that Hudlin's characters are overly concerned with race, though they are conscious of it, and in many ways they proudly embrace their racial heritage. Perhaps some people don't feel it's a heritage (s) worth embracing but Hudlin does. And I applaud him for that. A book written from a more pronounced 'black' perspective isn't a bad thing. I think it can help broaden perspectives, it's already generated a lot of debate, and maybe turn more people on to comics who have been underserved in that regard.

Now, does his run on BP have problems. Yeah. His writing is okay, but he needs to work on villians, character development, etc. But I don't think his book is racist. As for the sexism charge it's something I would have to look through the books again to see if I spot a pattern there.
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Old July 30 2008, 03:30 AM   #27
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

Very well said DarKush with more detail than I added.

As far as the culture thing between African American and African, I know plenty of both and for the most part, there is no difference between culture. Of course their are differences such as food and such, but at the core the cultures are the same, just like the difference between Mexicans and Mexican Americans, and say Canadians and Americans.
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Old July 30 2008, 05:13 AM   #28
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

I dislike Hudlin's run for many reasons:

- He basically tears up everything previously done with the character, creating a continuity nightmare. He created an ongoing problem with Dane Whitman that still hasn't been resolved.
- His terrible characterization of Storm, and the laughably bad handling of the wedding.
- Accusing anyone who doesn't like his run of being racist.
- He writes Black Panther as an Elite Mary Sue, which, apart from being grating, isn't very interesting dramatically. And he commits the cardinal sin of trying to build his character up by tearing others down (for example, rewriting Priest's account of T'Chaka's meeting with Captain America so that T'Chaka straight-up beats him in a fight and then slings him over his back).
- His treatment of white characters mingles various degrees of contempt.
- His politics are cartoonishly integrated and painful to read, and make little sense in light of the book he's writing.
DarKush wrote: View Post
If Priest was so great, why didn't he sell more books? Priest did a good job with Panther, but why should Hudlin be beholden to Priest?
Quality doesn't equal sales, certainly not for a minor character (Hudlin's book would have met a similar fate long ago but for Marvel continually feeding him crossovers to provide temporary boosts). And Hudlin should build on and respect the work of his predecessors, instead of bashing him under an assumed identity on internet forums.
-Racism. Where is it? Hudlin's BP is very confident, and a bit of a know-it-all, but so is Batman for example. What makes his portrayal racist? Should he be more deferential to white characters?
It's normally not an issue with how BP himself is written, it's the tone of the book as a whole; pretty much every white character is stupid or evil (numbered among the exceptions would be most of the wedding guests), and every single villain he encounters is a European or American racist.

On a more specific note, Hudlin is, after JMS, the prime offender in writing Tony Stark as the spawn of Satan's mating with the military-industrial complex.
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Old July 30 2008, 05:54 AM   #29
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

I am sorry but your reasons for disliking Black Panther have very little to do with the actual stories and more to do with who is writing. You reference T'Chaka beating Captain America and your reaction is right in line with how the story was written. I mean you seem to be mad at Hudlin for not following what Priest did. And Black Panther doesn't act any different than Captain America yet that seems to be ok. And the wedding was flat out good. I know plenty of people that liked it and some have never read a comic before.
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Old July 30 2008, 06:49 AM   #30
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Re: Black Panther animated trailer

DarKush wrote: View Post
-Perhaps what is driving so many people mad is that Hudlin has perhaps done something that white writers did to black characters for years, and sometimes continue to do, marginalize them. White characters are not the guiding, central characters in Hudlin's BP and I wonder if it isn't disconcerting to a lot of people.
it is racist, but you're absolutely right, it's the way black characters have been and sometimes continue to be written, so I tolerate it. I roll my eyes, I voice my dislike, but I let it slide, because it does mean equal treatment, even if it's poorer treatment all around.

I hope it acts as a wake-up for more comic readers, to get them to notice all racism in comics more often and voice their dislike louder.

Especially after Priest used Ross as a narrator, once again telling a black person's story through a white person's eyes (ie. Last King of Scotland, Cry Freedom, Ghosts of Mississippi, Mississippi Burning, etc., etc.). Priest purposely did that to build up white readership, and he still had weak sales.
I read Priest chose Ross because the alternative to a narrator was Panther monologuing which would ruin his cool enigmaticness and he was basically T'Challa's opposite in every way. white, yes, but also a small gangly geek.

as for sale numbers, well... that's a poor arguement all around. if you're posting on this board then you know as well as I that good fiction does not always mean popularity, and popularity often finds awful undeserving fiction.
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